[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
Stephanie Perrin
stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
Tue Feb 13 18:46:18 UTC 2018
Japan and Canada have legislation, add another 7.7, I am looking up
Panama to check. I am confident that in the block of other countries
(24.6) there will be quite a few with DP law. (PS why on earth does
Panama have such a large registration? retired Americans? Favorable
liability laws?)
Stephanie
On 2018-02-13 13:36, Volker Greimann wrote:
>
> That brings us back to the question whether we would want a unified
> DNS system or a fractured one. I personally think 14% of the worlds
> registrations are quite a significant number, but even if you do not,
> does this mean you would prefer fragmentation of policies and rules?
>
>
> Am 13.02.2018 um 19:18 schrieb John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>> +1 (to Greg)
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:09 AM Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
>> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>>
>> What are the jurisdictions where gTLD registrants are located?
>> The stats indicate that a distinct minority of gTLD registrations
>> and registrants may qualify for GDPR protection. According to
>> ICANN’s metrics, 14% of registrants are in the EU. The top
>> jurisdictions are:
>>
>> USA 41.0%
>>
>> EU countries 14.0%
>>
>> China 9.4%
>>
>> Canada 4.2%
>>
>> Japan 3.5%
>>
>> Panama 3.3%
>>
>> [other 24.6%]
>>
>> These stats don’t tell us exactly how many registrations might
>> involve GDPR (affecting that are the jurisdictions of the various
>> parties involved in any given registartion, the fact that legal
>> person in the EU are not due the same protection as natural
>> persons, etc.). Still, that 14% is interesting.
>>
>> The European Commission itself recently told ICANN that solutions
>> can and should be balanced, to “preserve the proper use of WHOIS
>> while ensuring full compliance with the (current and future) EU
>> data protection rules”, and that GDPR only applies to the
>> personal data of natural persons in the EU.
>>
>> So, what justifies extending a particular protection regime
>> (baseline) to all registrants worldwide, especially when a
>> technical system can support situational-based needs?
>> Over-compliance is not necessary, and over-compliance erodes the
>> proper use of WHOIS. I suggest that a proper solution is to
>> enable compliance with a rule in the situations in which the rule
>> applies. The proper solution is not to over-apply a rule, or to
>> apply the rule where it does not have power.
>>
>> All best,
>>
>> --Greg
>>
>> Source:
>> https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/cct-metrics-domain-name-registration-2016-06-27-en
>>
>>
>> **********************************
>>
>> Greg Aaron
>>
>> Vice-President, Product Management
>>
>> iThreat Cyber Group / Cybertoolbelt.com
>>
>> mobile: +1.215.858.2257
>>
>> **********************************
>>
>> The information contained in this message is privileged and
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>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Kathy
>> Kleiman
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 11:24 AM
>>
>>
>> *To:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>>
>> More than half the countries in the world now have comprehensive
>> data protection laws, and the number grows every year. We found
>> that in our research of foundation documents at the start of this
>> WG. The tipping point took place in 2015. As it happens, Volker's
>> approach simply does take this perspective into account.
>>
>> Best, Kathy
>>
>> On 2/13/2018 11:04 AM, Dotzero wrote:
>>
>> Volker, you assert that "it would be sensible to take GDPR as
>> a basis and start from there". Perhaps sensible from your
>> perspective and easier from your perspective but ICANN is an
>> international organization - primarily dealing with
>> technical/administrative issues - and it MUST take an
>> approach that, as best it can, accommodates the laws and
>> practices of various jurisdictions around the world. Your
>> proposed approach, quite simply does not do that.
>>
>> Michael Hammer
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM, Volker Greimann
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>
>> I think that it would be sensible to take the GDPR as a
>> basis and start from there. Obviously, where it conflicts
>> with other applicable laws, we should make sure to
>> accomodate those as well, but as the EU Commission and
>> others have pointed out is that compliance with GDPR does
>> not preclude providing certain access levels to certain
>> parties. What those levels would be and who those parties
>> could be should be the main focus of our work.
>>
>> Am 13.02.2018 um 15:41 schrieb Chuck:
>>
>> Volker,
>>
>> Are you saying that you think that RDS policies
>> should be designed to comply with European
>> regulations and then applied to all other
>> jurisdictions in the world?
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> *From:*Volker Greimann
>> [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:58 AM
>> *To:* Chuck <consult at cgomes.com>
>> <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>; 'Michael Palage'
>> <michael at palage.com> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
>> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>>
>> I am afraid that if we create different policies for
>> different regions, we will break the model, encourage
>> forum shopping and encourage firewalling of entire
>> geographic sections of the net. I hope that is not
>> what we are doing here.
>>
>> GDPR will cause some breakage of this and I see it as
>> our mission to fix this breakage of the standard by
>> proposing a unified model once again.
>>
>> Ultimately, if this solution does what the EU has
>> been asking for, e.g. protect legitimate use cases of
>> registration data as well as the rights of the data
>> subjects, there is no reason why it should not be
>> universally applicable.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> Am 13.02.2018 um 00:04 schrieb Chuck:
>>
>> Volker,
>>
>> The WG could recommend policies that are
>> ‘universally applicable to all registrations’ but
>> I seriously doubt that will happen in today’s
>> world. That would be much simpler than policies
>> that vary by region and users, but is it realistic?
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Volker Greimann
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 2:30 PM
>> *To:* Michael Palage <michael at palage.com>
>> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
>> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs.
>> lawful
>>
>> Michael is right. ICANN iOS based on the thought
>> of “One World; one Internet”. This also means
>> that the policies it creates should be
>> universally applicable to all registrations, if
>> possible. IF we start creating policy that
>> diverges, that would only lead to further
>> fragmentation and undermine the founding ideal of
>> ICANN itself. Our aim should be to create one
>> policy that can be applied to all or most
>> registrations and that can be implemented by all
>> registrars alike.
>>
>> While we will likely have a certain amount of
>> fragmentation following May 25 as each contracted
>> party applies its own solution, it should be our
>> goal to overcome this and present a new unified
>> policy that works for all contracted parties.
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12. Feb 2018, at 20:27, Michael Palage
>> <michael at palage.com
>> <mailto:michael at palage.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Greg/John,
>>
>> I will respectfully push back on your legal
>> over simplification of the GDPR.
>>
>> The exterritorial aspect of the GDPR set
>> forth in Article 3 is NOT just limited to EU
>> residents/citizens. As Michele has noted in
>> the past, the GDPR requires BlackKnight as an
>> Irish legal entity to protect all of its
>> customers data (EU/Non-EU) in compliance with
>> GDPR, as well as US entities that target and
>> conduct business within the EU.
>>
>> Now your points about the distinction between
>> natural and legal persons is a fair one and
>> one that has been noted in EU and Art 29
>> communications. Could you please share the
>> basis of your proposition that 97% of all
>> domain name registrations are registered by
>> legal entities.
>>
>> As I have note previously the long term
>> viability of the ICANN multi-stakeholder
>> model is at risk as national governments
>> continue to pass national laws that impact
>> the operation of the Internet. However, the
>> European Union is NOT alone in advancing
>> Privacy Legislation, in fact data
>> localization is perhaps the next biggest
>> lurking threat to the domain name system.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
>> Behalf Of*John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> *Sent:*Monday, February 12, 2018 1:22 PM
>> *To:*Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
>> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>
>> *Cc:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis
>> vs. lawful
>>
>> I think Greg is right on. There's simply no
>> justification to force a law that is only
>> intended to apply to a) EU residents/citizens
>> that are b) natural persons not using the
>> domain name for commercial purposes, to the
>> remaining...what? 97% - 99% of the world's
>> registrant population? That would be a
>> balanced way to implement all of this.
>>
>> John Horton
>> President and CEO, LegitScript
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJRXE5UTAtclVxdTg&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJSG9zOUVwN1lFKzFrRVlnaWU0NGZ4RmdkUjg4PQ
>>
>> *Follow****Legit**Script*: LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com>
>> | Facebook
>> <https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript> |
>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/legitscript> |
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>> <http://blog.legitscript.com/> |Newsletter
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>>
>> https://www.legitscript.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/LegitScript-Workplace.pnghttps://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJTmNWbmcwOTVJMXc&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJQlZWOXVGbG9acC9nRGhzdEkxclFJVytCWVNjPQ
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Greg Aaron
>> <gca at icginc.com <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I don’t know if we arrive at the same place.
>>
>> GDPR is based on one principle. It
>> states what is legal. It's explicit
>> about what you _are allowed to do_;
>> granted there’s some flexibility and room
>> for interpretation. It’s like saying
>> what’s inside a box.
>>
>> U.S. law is one based on different
>> principles. AFAIK U.S. consumer
>> protection law does not enumerate
>> specifically what is lawful. Instead it
>> tends to state what is illegal, what you
>> are _not allowed to do_. It’s like
>> saying what’s outside the box. The U.S.
>> doesn’t have something like GDPR that
>> spells out legal bases for collecting
>> data, i.e. the enumerated allowable
>> reasons. Instead the trade and consumer
>> protection laws basically say: entities
>> have the right to form contracts between
>> themselves, they should live up to the
>> contract, don’t surprise people, don’t do
>> certain dishonest things.
>>
>> Here's the problem: if one makes the GDPR
>> principle the ICANN standard and you
>> apply it to all registrations, then
>> practices that are allowable in one place
>> under the law (like the U.S.) would no
>> longer be allowed there by ICANN policy.
>> ICANN would be choosing one legal
>> approach or regime for everyone in the
>> world.
>>
>> The alternative is to apply the GDRP only
>> to those that it is designed to protect:
>> registrants in the EU.
>>
>> For example, there’s nothing in U.S. law
>> that prohibits a U.S. registrar from
>> having a contract that says publication
>> of full contact data in WHOIS is a
>> condition of registering a domain name if
>> you are a registrant in the U.S.
>>
>> Seehttps://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/
>> for more.
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
>> Behalf Of*Silver, Bradley via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> *Sent:*Friday, February 9, 2018 2:54 PM
>> *To:*Volker Greimann
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>;gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>
>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal
>> basis vs. lawful
>>
>> It is true that the GDPR is prescriptive,
>> although also rather open-ended (hence
>> our current pickle). But regardless of
>> the term we use, don’t we arrive at the
>> same place: which is that if something
>> that requires a legal basis is done
>> without one, it will be unlawful? Using
>> Kathy’s example, if data is processed
>> without complying with minimization or
>> purpose principles, will such processing
>> not run afoul of the law, and hence be
>> unlawful?
>>
>> There are important distinctions between
>> the meaning of “legal basis” which
>> implies that a law requires something to
>> be affirmatively present, versus
>> “lawful”, which means that something is
>> not prohibited by law. Ultimately though,
>> isn’t “lawfulness”, the same end point,
>> regardless?
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
>> Behalf Of*Volker Greimann
>> *Sent:*Friday, February 09, 2018 11:27 AM
>> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal
>> basis vs. lawful
>>
>> I do not see how. Kathy's analysis seems
>> sound. The flexibility within the GDPR
>> still only allows processing in very
>> specific cicumstances, all of which are
>> listed in the GDPR.
>>
>> Am 09.02.2018 um 16:45 schrieb Victoria
>> Sheckler:
>>
>> Kathy’s analysis breaks down on a
>> practical level when one looks at the
>> GDPR and what it says about when data
>> can be processed. The GDPR allows for
>> flexibility for what can be processed
>> and when, and kathy’s analysis
>> overlooks that point.
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
>> Behalf Of*Kathy Kleiman
>> *Sent:*Thursday, February 8, 2018 7:07 PM
>> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal
>> basis vs. lawful
>>
>> Tx for the invitation to join, Chuck,
>> and following up on the discussion of
>> Sam and Tapani, let me add that
>> criteria for processing must be
>> clearer than something broadly within
>> ICANN's mission statement and
>> something permissible somewhere. The
>> requirements under law are express
>> and concrete.
>>
>> Specifically, GDPR Article 5(1)(b and
>> c) states:
>>
>> *Personal data shall be:
>> 2. "collected for_specified, explicit
>> and legitimate purposes_and not
>> further processed in a manner that is
>> incompatible with those
>> purposes"*(the "purpose limitation") AND*
>> 3. "adequate, relevant and limited to
>> what is necessary in relation to the
>> purposes for which they are
>> processed"*(the "data minimisation"
>> requirement). [underline added]*
>> *
>> Thus, our first criteria of
>> "consistent with ICANN's mission," is
>> only the first step and we need to go
>> further than even the 3 criteria we
>> are discussing..
>>
>> Second, lawful and legal enter us
>> into a debate over words and I have
>> to agree with Sam and Tapani's
>> analysis and let me add some of my own.
>>
>> "Legal" is the term we use for
>> actions expressly allowed under law.
>> How we process personal data under
>> the GDRP falls into this category --
>> of processing expressly allowed under
>> law. Whereas the term lawful is used
>> for a much broader category of
>> actions which are generally
>> permissible and allowable.
>>
>> The term "legal" is much more
>> consistent with our criteria
>> statement because the processing of
>> personal data by ICANN must clearly
>> have a/valid legal basis/as expressly
>> defined by data protection laws.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kathy
>>
>> On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Sam Lanfranco
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Tapani,
>>
>> I will extract from your longer
>> message.
>> I deliberately kept my brief and
>> less technical.
>> I think we are in agreement here
>> and I support your position.
>>
>> On 2/7/2018 1:07 AM, Tapani
>> Tarvainen wrote:
>>
>> The key distinction, as I
>> understand it, is that "lawful"
>> would be
>> defined by the negative,
>> everything that some law does not
>> prohibit,
>>
>> where as "legal basis" is defined
>> by the positive, only things whose
>> justification can be explicitly
>> derived from law.
>>
>> <......>
>>
>> So I would prefer "legal basis"
>> specifically in this sense: that
>> any processing
>> would have to be explicitly
>> based on one of the criteria, or
>> bases, as listed
>> in GDPR Article 6, or similar
>> explicit justification in other
>> data protection legislation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> John Horton
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