[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Tue Feb 13 18:36:52 UTC 2018
That brings us back to the question whether we would want a unified DNS
system or a fractured one. I personally think 14% of the worlds
registrations are quite a significant number, but even if you do not,
does this mean you would prefer fragmentation of policies and rules?
Am 13.02.2018 um 19:18 schrieb John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
> +1 (to Greg)
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:09 AM Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>
> What are the jurisdictions where gTLD registrants are located?
> The stats indicate that a distinct minority of gTLD registrations
> and registrants may qualify for GDPR protection. According to
> ICANN’s metrics, 14% of registrants are in the EU. The top
> jurisdictions are:
>
> USA 41.0%
>
> EU countries 14.0%
>
> China 9.4%
>
> Canada 4.2%
>
> Japan 3.5%
>
> Panama 3.3%
>
> [other 24.6%]
>
> These stats don’t tell us exactly how many registrations might
> involve GDPR (affecting that are the jurisdictions of the various
> parties involved in any given registartion, the fact that legal
> person in the EU are not due the same protection as natural
> persons, etc.). Still, that 14% is interesting.
>
> The European Commission itself recently told ICANN that solutions
> can and should be balanced, to “preserve the proper use of WHOIS
> while ensuring full compliance with the (current and future) EU
> data protection rules”, and that GDPR only applies to the personal
> data of natural persons in the EU.
>
> So, what justifies extending a particular protection regime
> (baseline) to all registrants worldwide, especially when a
> technical system can support situational-based needs?
> Over-compliance is not necessary, and over-compliance erodes the
> proper use of WHOIS. I suggest that a proper solution is to
> enable compliance with a rule in the situations in which the rule
> applies. The proper solution is not to over-apply a rule, or to
> apply the rule where it does not have power.
>
> All best,
>
> --Greg
>
> Source:
> https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/cct-metrics-domain-name-registration-2016-06-27-en
>
>
> **********************************
>
> Greg Aaron
>
> Vice-President, Product Management
>
> iThreat Cyber Group / Cybertoolbelt.com
>
> mobile: +1.215.858.2257
>
> **********************************
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> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Kathy
> Kleiman
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 11:24 AM
>
>
> *To:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> More than half the countries in the world now have comprehensive
> data protection laws, and the number grows every year. We found
> that in our research of foundation documents at the start of this
> WG. The tipping point took place in 2015. As it happens, Volker's
> approach simply does take this perspective into account.
>
> Best, Kathy
>
> On 2/13/2018 11:04 AM, Dotzero wrote:
>
> Volker, you assert that "it would be sensible to take GDPR as
> a basis and start from there". Perhaps sensible from your
> perspective and easier from your perspective but ICANN is an
> international organization - primarily dealing with
> technical/administrative issues - and it MUST take an approach
> that, as best it can, accommodates the laws and practices of
> various jurisdictions around the world. Your proposed
> approach, quite simply does not do that.
>
> Michael Hammer
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM, Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
> wrote:
>
> I think that it would be sensible to take the GDPR as a
> basis and start from there. Obviously, where it conflicts
> with other applicable laws, we should make sure to
> accomodate those as well, but as the EU Commission and
> others have pointed out is that compliance with GDPR does
> not preclude providing certain access levels to certain
> parties. What those levels would be and who those parties
> could be should be the main focus of our work.
>
> Am 13.02.2018 um 15:41 schrieb Chuck:
>
> Volker,
>
> Are you saying that you think that RDS policies should
> be designed to comply with European regulations and
> then applied to all other jurisdictions in the world?
>
> Chuck
>
> *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:58 AM
> *To:* Chuck <consult at cgomes.com>
> <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>; 'Michael Palage'
> <michael at palage.com> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> I am afraid that if we create different policies for
> different regions, we will break the model, encourage
> forum shopping and encourage firewalling of entire
> geographic sections of the net. I hope that is not
> what we are doing here.
>
> GDPR will cause some breakage of this and I see it as
> our mission to fix this breakage of the standard by
> proposing a unified model once again.
>
> Ultimately, if this solution does what the EU has been
> asking for, e.g. protect legitimate use cases of
> registration data as well as the rights of the data
> subjects, there is no reason why it should not be
> universally applicable.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
> Am 13.02.2018 um 00:04 schrieb Chuck:
>
> Volker,
>
> The WG could recommend policies that are
> ‘universally applicable to all registrations’ but
> I seriously doubt that will happen in today’s
> world. That would be much simpler than policies
> that vary by region and users, but is it realistic?
>
> Chuck
>
> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Volker Greimann
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 2:30 PM
> *To:* Michael Palage <michael at palage.com>
> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs.
> lawful
>
> Michael is right. ICANN iOS based on the thought
> of “One World; one Internet”. This also means that
> the policies it creates should be universally
> applicable to all registrations, if possible. IF
> we start creating policy that diverges, that would
> only lead to further fragmentation and undermine
> the founding ideal of ICANN itself. Our aim should
> be to create one policy that can be applied to all
> or most registrations and that can be implemented
> by all registrars alike.
>
> While we will likely have a certain amount of
> fragmentation following May 25 as each contracted
> party applies its own solution, it should be our
> goal to overcome this and present a new unified
> policy that works for all contracted parties.
>
> Volker
>
>
>
> On 12. Feb 2018, at 20:27, Michael Palage
> <michael at palage.com
> <mailto:michael at palage.com>> wrote:
>
> Greg/John,
>
> I will respectfully push back on your legal
> over simplification of the GDPR.
>
> The exterritorial aspect of the GDPR set forth
> in Article 3 is NOT just limited to EU
> residents/citizens. As Michele has noted in
> the past, the GDPR requires BlackKnight as an
> Irish legal entity to protect all of its
> customers data (EU/Non-EU) in compliance with
> GDPR, as well as US entities that target and
> conduct business within the EU.
>
> Now your points about the distinction between
> natural and legal persons is a fair one and
> one that has been noted in EU and Art 29
> communications. Could you please share the
> basis of your proposition that 97% of all
> domain name registrations are registered by
> legal entities.
>
> As I have note previously the long term
> viability of the ICANN multi-stakeholder model
> is at risk as national governments continue to
> pass national laws that impact the operation
> of the Internet. However, the European Union
> is NOT alone in advancing Privacy Legislation,
> in fact data localization is perhaps the next
> biggest lurking threat to the domain name system.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michael
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
> Behalf Of*John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> *Sent:*Monday, February 12, 2018 1:22 PM
> *To:*Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>
> *Cc:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis
> vs. lawful
>
> I think Greg is right on. There's simply no
> justification to force a law that is only
> intended to apply to a) EU residents/citizens
> that are b) natural persons not using the
> domain name for commercial purposes, to the
> remaining...what? 97% - 99% of the world's
> registrant population? That would be a
> balanced way to implement all of this.
>
> John Horton
> President and CEO, LegitScript
>
> https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJRXE5UTAtclVxdTg&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJSG9zOUVwN1lFKzFrRVlnaWU0NGZ4RmdkUjg4PQ
>
> *Follow****Legit**Script*: LinkedIn
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>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Greg Aaron
> <gca at icginc.com <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>
> I don’t know if we arrive at the same place.
>
> GDPR is based on one principle. It states
> what is legal. It's explicit about what
> you _are allowed to do_; granted there’s
> some flexibility and room for
> interpretation. It’s like saying what’s
> inside a box.
>
> U.S. law is one based on different
> principles. AFAIK U.S. consumer protection
> law does not enumerate specifically what
> is lawful. Instead it tends to state what
> is illegal, what you are _not allowed to
> do_. It’s like saying what’s outside the
> box. The U.S. doesn’t have something
> like GDPR that spells out legal bases for
> collecting data, i.e. the enumerated
> allowable reasons. Instead the trade and
> consumer protection laws basically say:
> entities have the right to form contracts
> between themselves, they should live up to
> the contract, don’t surprise people, don’t
> do certain dishonest things.
>
> Here's the problem: if one makes the GDPR
> principle the ICANN standard and you apply
> it to all registrations, then practices
> that are allowable in one place under the
> law (like the U.S.) would no longer be
> allowed there by ICANN policy. ICANN
> would be choosing one legal approach or
> regime for everyone in the world.
>
> The alternative is to apply the GDRP only
> to those that it is designed to protect:
> registrants in the EU.
>
> For example, there’s nothing in U.S. law
> that prohibits a U.S. registrar from
> having a contract that says publication of
> full contact data in WHOIS is a condition
> of registering a domain name if you are a
> registrant in the U.S.
>
> Seehttps://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/
> for more.
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
> Behalf Of*Silver, Bradley via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> *Sent:*Friday, February 9, 2018 2:54 PM
> *To:*Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>;gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>
>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal
> basis vs. lawful
>
> It is true that the GDPR is prescriptive,
> although also rather open-ended (hence our
> current pickle). But regardless of the
> term we use, don’t we arrive at the same
> place: which is that if something that
> requires a legal basis is done without
> one, it will be unlawful? Using Kathy’s
> example, if data is processed without
> complying with minimization or purpose
> principles, will such processing not run
> afoul of the law, and hence be unlawful?
>
> There are important distinctions between
> the meaning of “legal basis” which implies
> that a law requires something to be
> affirmatively present, versus “lawful”,
> which means that something is not
> prohibited by law. Ultimately though,
> isn’t “lawfulness”, the same end point,
> regardless?
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
> Behalf Of*Volker Greimann
> *Sent:*Friday, February 09, 2018 11:27 AM
> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal
> basis vs. lawful
>
> I do not see how. Kathy's analysis seems
> sound. The flexibility within the GDPR
> still only allows processing in very
> specific cicumstances, all of which are
> listed in the GDPR.
>
> Am 09.02.2018 um 16:45 schrieb Victoria
> Sheckler:
>
> Kathy’s analysis breaks down on a
> practical level when one looks at the
> GDPR and what it says about when data
> can be processed. The GDPR allows for
> flexibility for what can be processed
> and when, and kathy’s analysis
> overlooks that point.
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
> Behalf Of*Kathy Kleiman
> *Sent:*Thursday, February 8, 2018 7:07 PM
> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal
> basis vs. lawful
>
> Tx for the invitation to join, Chuck,
> and following up on the discussion of
> Sam and Tapani, let me add that
> criteria for processing must be
> clearer than something broadly within
> ICANN's mission statement and
> something permissible somewhere. The
> requirements under law are express and
> concrete.
>
> Specifically, GDPR Article 5(1)(b and
> c) states:
>
> *Personal data shall be:
> 2. "collected for_specified, explicit
> and legitimate purposes_and not
> further processed in a manner that is
> incompatible with those purposes"*(the
> "purpose limitation") AND*
> 3. "adequate, relevant and limited to
> what is necessary in relation to the
> purposes for which they are
> processed"*(the "data minimisation"
> requirement). [underline added]*
> *
> Thus, our first criteria of
> "consistent with ICANN's mission," is
> only the first step and we need to go
> further than even the 3 criteria we
> are discussing..
>
> Second, lawful and legal enter us into
> a debate over words and I have to
> agree with Sam and Tapani's analysis
> and let me add some of my own.
>
> "Legal" is the term we use for actions
> expressly allowed under law. How we
> process personal data under the GDRP
> falls into this category -- of
> processing expressly allowed under
> law. Whereas the term lawful is used
> for a much broader category of actions
> which are generally permissible and
> allowable.
>
> The term "legal" is much more
> consistent with our criteria statement
> because the processing of personal
> data by ICANN must clearly have
> a/valid legal basis/as expressly
> defined by data protection laws.
>
> Best regards,
> Kathy
>
> On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Sam Lanfranco wrote:
>
> Thanks Tapani,
>
> I will extract from your longer
> message.
> I deliberately kept my brief and
> less technical.
> I think we are in agreement here
> and I support your position.
>
> On 2/7/2018 1:07 AM, Tapani
> Tarvainen wrote:
>
> The key distinction, as I
> understand it, is that "lawful"
> would be
> defined by the negative,
> everything that some law does not
> prohibit,
>
> where as "legal basis" is defined
> by the positive, only things whose
> justification can be explicitly
> derived from law.
>
> <......>
>
> So I would prefer "legal basis"
> specifically in this sense: that
> any processing
> would have to be explicitly based
> on one of the criteria, or bases,
> as listed
> in GDPR Article 6, or similar
> explicit justification in other
> data protection legislation.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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