[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
theo geurts
gtheo at xs4all.nl
Sun Mar 11 19:49:02 UTC 2018
What are we trying to solve here? And is that up to this WG?
Thanks,
Theo
On 11-3-2018 20:44, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
> It is simple. Every county in the world has a process for creating a
> legal person. That process is very different from acknowledging the
> creation of a natural person.
>
> In an overwhelming majority if cases neither natural or legal persons
> will attempt to deceive you as to which they are. Microsoft isn’t
> going to say their domain is personal. People aren’t going to tell you
> they are really corporations.
>
> In those rare cases of deception, every country on earth has a legal
> definition and surely a process of determining which is which.
>
> --
> John Bambenek
>
> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>
>> John
>>
>> If it was simple we wouldn’t have spent as long as we did in the
>> PPSAI PDP discussing and debating it.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Michele
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>
>> Blacknight Solutions
>>
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>
>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>
>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>>
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>
>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>
>> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
>> <mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:38
>> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com
>> <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
>> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian muthusamy
>> <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG
>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy
>> Standards
>>
>> The legal vs natural person debate is simple. Surely we can agree on
>> that.
>>
>> I think there is a great deal of overcomplicating commercial purpose
>> just in my quick review. We need not let the exceptions drive the
>> rule. One quick indicator is “accepts payments”. I bet we could all
>> come up with a dozen are so unambiguous indicators quickly. Let the
>> edge cases be adjudicated.
>>
>> --
>>
>> John Bambenek
>>
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:28, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>
>> John
>>
>> While the final report I pointed you to contains the conclusions
>> I’d recommend you take the time to have a look over the PPSAI
>> deliberations on this matter.
>>
>> You talked about “commercial use”, which is understandable,
>> however, as the discussions show it is not as simple as a
>> difference between legal person and natural person.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Michele
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>
>> Blacknight Solutions
>>
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>
>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>
>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>>
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>
>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>
>> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
>> <mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:06
>> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com
>> <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
>> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian muthusamy
>> <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG
>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy
>> Standards
>>
>> Ok, well having read that I believe my answer is still a valid
>> response to Volker. You ask during registration, make it
>> mandatory to answer one way or the other, and in complaints
>> simple use the definitions in use in the jurisdiction involved.
>> Surely every country on earth knows the difference between legal
>> and natural persons, and I think tax law is an easy barometer for
>> determining commercial activity. Yes, it puts some effort on
>> providers who want to avoid “content” but I reiterate the point
>> of contention here:
>>
>> That those who actually work in security and those who actually
>> work in protecting privacy (with lone exceptions of DPAs) are of
>> the loud, firm, and unanimous contention that not having access
>> to this information in a free, easy, and programmatic way while
>> lead to a dramatic and clear lose of privacy far beyond the
>> presence of emails in whois/rds. The policy position that we must
>> extend full privacy to everyone (despite a mandate to extend that
>> far) is fundamentally unnecessary and that the security and
>> stability of the internet which is actually in ICANNs mission is
>> more important than convenience of registries/registrars in
>> dealing with how to define commercial which is NOT in ICANNs
>> mission.
>>
>> --
>>
>> John Bambenek
>>
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Here’s the final report:
>>
>> https://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/raa/ppsai-final-07dec15-en.pdf
>>
>> The relevant section is from page 39 onwards and again from
>> page 55
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Michele
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>
>> Blacknight Solutions
>>
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>
>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>
>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
>> Business Park,Sleaty
>>
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>
>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>
>> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
>> <mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 14:31
>> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com
>> <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
>> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian
>> muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com
>> <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG
>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data
>> Privacy Standards
>>
>> For those not present, can you summarize or at least point to
>> a document we can read? Stating that something was discussed
>> somewhere gives me little to go on as to what information
>> you’d like me to know.
>>
>> --
>>
>> John Bambenek
>>
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:14, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>
>> This issue was discussed in depth during the PPSAI (proxy
>> privacy) PDP.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>
>> Blacknight Solutions
>>
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>
>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>
>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
>> Business Park,Sleaty
>>
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>
>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>
>> *From: *gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on behalf of
>> Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 11:24
>> *To: *sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com
>> <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>
>> *Cc: *RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data
>> Privacy Standards
>>
>> Please provide a workable, reasonable method of
>> identifying the domain names used in commercial manner
>> amongst the existing hundreds of million registered
>> domains. Please also identify how this determination can
>> be updated automatically once the use of a domain name
>> changes.
>>
>> The fact is that commercial use is content. ICANN does
>> not deal with content except for very small and specific
>> areas. ICANN and registrars have no relationship with the
>> content that is published under a domain name. We
>> certainly have no control over specific uses.
>>
>> These details belong on the websites, as is provided in
>> the laws in Europe and other jurisdictions. There is no
>> need to duplicate this in whois.
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9. Mar 2018, at 07:49, sivasubramanian muthusamy
>> <6.internet at gmail.com<mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Private persons (including private persons in a
>> public career or a career of public exposure) need
>> privacy. Why is this notion extended to protect
>> online commercial entities of varying ethical
>> standards? Does
>> Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce have a right
>> to privacy of its Registrant data?
>>
>> Their customers don't look for contact information
>> from RDS, but in the entity's commercial web site,
>> but the information is not there. Many online
>> entities operate from behind layers of veil that
>> separate them from customers and enable them to carry
>> on their commercial activity with minimal or
>> non-existent accountability.
>>
>> Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce sells millions
>> of air tickets but does not seem to have a building
>> somewhere, and/or does not have an employee with a
>> name. Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce takes
>> your money, takes your information without disclosing
>> any of its own, and does not have a phone number or
>> answer email messages (operates through call centers,
>> answers email messages by templates) when you are
>> stranded Midway with a ticket that doesn't work.
>> Yourcasino takes your credit card number,
>> yourpharmacy takes your money and medical data,
>> yourholiday owns your passport, and all these
>> entities don't have an email address, phone number or
>> a building with a person.
>>
>> Could we do away with this notion of (Registrant)data
>> privacy where it concerns an online entity that
>> carries out commercial monetary transactions online?
>> That would require us to discriminate between private
>> persons and e-commerce entities, which would be a
>> complex process - agreed. Nevertheless, could we
>> think about this?
>>
>> Sivasubramanian M
>>
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>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
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>>
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>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
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