[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

Sun Mar 11 19:58:15 UTC 2018

Greg

I’m not disputing the legal vs natural person difference. I was referring to the commentary around commercial use. Which is both a mess to untangle and a matter of content.

Regards

Michele

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From: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
Date: Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:56
To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
Cc: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

I agree with Bradley that dealing with "use" or types of users do not come close to "regulating content."  Indeed, the actual content is irrelevant.

While the noncommercial vs. commercial discussion is interesting, we need to decide if that is relevant first, i.e., do we want to require different things of "commercial persons" as opposed to "noncommercial persons".  If it's not relevant, it's a gaping rabbit-hole.  If it is relevant, I think we should discuss what we would want to be different before getting into the issue of distinguishing commercial from non-commercial.  (While it's not simple, my view is that many of the complexities visited on the PPSAI conversation were due to "externalities" and not the narrow question of designing a proper filter.)

GDPR has a different dividing line, between natural persons and legal persons (e.g., partnerships, corporations, etc.), and it may be confusing to blend the two.

GDPR doesn't deal with legal persons, so Tapani's statement is technically correct: "It doesn't say anything about
what we should do with legal persons. So as far as GDPR is concerned, there's no problem in affording legal persons same protection as natural ones."

It's equally true that, as far as GDPR is concerned, there's no problem in NOT affording legal persons the same protections as natural persons.  In sum, GDPR provides no basis for giving legal persons such protections.  However as far as many things other than GDPR is concerned, there are significant problems in affording legal persons the same protection as natural ones.  So, GDPR should not provide a "jumping-off point" for an effort, not grounded in GDPR or even the rule of law, to provide those protections to legal persons.

Greg

On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 3:39 PM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
John

If it was simple we wouldn’t have spent as long as we did in the PPSAI PDP discussing and debating it.

Regards

Michele

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https://ceo.hosting/
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
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Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
Ireland  Company No.: 370845
From: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com<mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
Date: Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:38

To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
Cc: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com<mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

The legal vs natural person debate is simple. Surely we can agree on that.

I think there is a great deal of overcomplicating commercial purpose just in my quick review. We need not let the exceptions drive the rule. One quick indicator is “accepts payments”. I bet we could all come up with a dozen are so unambiguous indicators quickly. Let the edge cases be adjudicated.
--
John Bambenek

On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:28, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
John

While the final report I pointed you to contains the conclusions I’d recommend you take the time to have a look over the PPSAI deliberations on this matter.

You talked about “commercial use”, which is understandable, however, as the discussions show it is not as simple as a difference between legal person and natural person.

Regards

Michele

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Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
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https://www.blacknight.com/
https://blacknight.blog/
https://ceo.hosting/
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
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Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
Ireland  Company No.: 370845
From: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com<mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
Date: Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:06
To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
Cc: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com<mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

Ok, well having read that I believe my answer is still a valid response to Volker. You ask during registration, make it mandatory to answer one way or the other, and in complaints simple use the definitions in use in the jurisdiction involved. Surely every country on earth knows the difference between legal and natural persons, and I think tax law is an easy barometer for determining commercial activity. Yes, it puts some effort on providers who want to avoid “content” but I reiterate the point of contention here:

That those who actually work in security and those who actually work in protecting privacy (with lone exceptions of DPAs) are of the loud, firm, and unanimous contention that not having access to this information in a free, easy, and programmatic way while lead to a dramatic and clear lose of privacy far beyond the presence of emails in whois/rds. The policy position that we must extend full privacy to everyone (despite a mandate to extend that far) is fundamentally unnecessary and that the security and stability of the internet which is actually in ICANNs mission is more important than convenience of registries/registrars in dealing with how to define commercial which is NOT in ICANNs mission.
--
John Bambenek

On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
Here’s the final report:

https://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/raa/ppsai-final-07dec15-en.pdf

The relevant section is from page 39 onwards and again from page 55

Regards

Michele

--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting, Colocation & Domains
https://www.blacknight.com/
https://blacknight.blog/
https://ceo.hosting/
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
Ireland  Company No.: 370845
From: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com<mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
Date: Sunday 11 March 2018 at 14:31
To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
Cc: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com<mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

For those not present, can you summarize or at least point to a document we can read? Stating that something was discussed somewhere gives me little to go on as to what information you’d like me to know.

--
John Bambenek

On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:14, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
This issue was discussed in depth during the PPSAI (proxy privacy) PDP.

--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting, Colocation & Domains
https://www.blacknight.com/
https://blacknight.blog/
https://ceo.hosting/
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
Ireland  Company No.: 370845
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
Date: Sunday 11 March 2018 at 11:24
To: sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com<mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>
Cc: RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

Please provide a workable, reasonable method of identifying the domain names used in commercial manner amongst the existing hundreds of million registered domains. Please also identify how this determination can be updated automatically once the use of a domain name changes.

The fact is that commercial use is content. ICANN does not deal with content except for very small and specific areas. ICANN and registrars have no relationship with the content that is published under a domain name. We certainly have no control over specific uses.

These details belong on the websites, as is provided in the laws in Europe and other jurisdictions. There is no need to duplicate this in whois.

Volker

On 9. Mar 2018, at 07:49, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com<mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>> wrote:

Private persons (including private persons in a public career or a career of public exposure) need privacy. Why is this notion extended to protect online commercial entities of varying ethical standards? Does Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce have a right to privacy of its Registrant data?

Their customers don't look for contact information from RDS, but in the entity's commercial web site, but the information is not there. Many online entities operate from behind layers of veil that separate them from customers and enable them to carry on their commercial activity with minimal or non-existent accountability.

Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce sells millions of air tickets but does not seem to have a building somewhere, and/or does not have an employee with a name. Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce takes your money, takes your information without disclosing any of its own, and does not have a phone number or answer email messages (operates through call centers, answers email messages by templates) when you are stranded Midway with a ticket that doesn't work. Yourcasino takes your credit card number, yourpharmacy takes your money and medical data, yourholiday owns your passport, and all these entities don't have an email address, phone number or a building with a person.

Could we do away with this notion of (Registrant)data privacy where it concerns an online entity that carries out commercial monetary transactions online? That would require us to discriminate between private persons and e-commerce entities, which would be a complex process - agreed. Nevertheless, could we think about this?

Sivasubramanian M
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