[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

Sun Mar 11 20:05:00 UTC 2018

Thanks, Michele, I had understood that.  I'm not seeking to minimize the
"mess," but I think it was messy in PPSAI for reasons far beyond the
challenges of distinguishing a non-commercial use from a commercial one.  I
also don't think it requires digging into content (as opposed to "use"),
though I'm sure there are edge cases one can find.

Greg

On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
michele at blacknight.com> wrote:

> Greg
>
>
>
> I’m not disputing the legal vs natural person difference. I was referring
> to the commentary around commercial use. Which is both a mess to untangle
> and a matter of content.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
> Michele
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mr Michele Neylon
>
> Blacknight Solutions
>
> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
> https://www.blacknight.com/
>
> https://blacknight.blog/
>
> https://ceo.hosting/
>
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>
> -------------------------------
>
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>
> Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
> *From: *Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:56
> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
> *Cc: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>, RDS WG <
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>
> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
>
>
>
> I agree with Bradley that dealing with "use" or types of users do not come
> close to "regulating content."  Indeed, the actual content is irrelevant.
>
>
>
> While the noncommercial vs. commercial discussion is interesting, we need
> to decide if that is relevant first, i.e., do we want to require different
> things of "commercial persons" as opposed to "noncommercial persons".  If
> it's not relevant, it's a gaping rabbit-hole.  If it is relevant, I think
> we should discuss what we would want to be different *before* getting
> into the issue of distinguishing commercial from non-commercial.  (While
> it's not simple, my view is that many of the complexities visited on the
> PPSAI conversation were due to "externalities" and not the narrow question
> of designing a proper filter.)
>
>
>
> GDPR has a different dividing line, between natural persons and legal
> persons (e.g., partnerships, corporations, etc.), and it may be confusing
> to blend the two.
>
>
>
> GDPR doesn't deal with legal persons, so Tapani's statement is technically
> correct: "It doesn't say anything about
>
> what we should do with legal persons. So as far as GDPR is concerned,
> there's no problem in affording legal persons same protection as natural
> ones."
>
>
>
> It's equally true that, as far as GDPR is concerned, there's no problem in
> NOT affording legal persons the same protections as natural persons.  In
> sum, GDPR provides no basis for giving legal persons such protections.
> However as far as many things other than GDPR is concerned, there are
> significant problems in affording legal persons the same protection as
> natural ones.  So, GDPR should not provide a "jumping-off point" for an
> effort, not grounded in GDPR or even the rule of law, to provide those
> protections to legal persons.
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 3:39 PM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
> michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>
> John
>
>
>
> If it was simple we wouldn’t have spent as long as we did in the PPSAI PDP
> discussing and debating it.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Michele
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mr Michele Neylon
>
> Blacknight Solutions
>
> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
> https://www.blacknight.com/
>
> https://blacknight.blog/
>
> https://ceo.hosting/
>
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>
> -------------------------------
>
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>
> Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:38
>
>
> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian
> muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
>
>
>
> The legal vs natural person debate is simple. Surely we can agree on
> that.
>
>
>
> I think there is a great deal of overcomplicating commercial purpose just
> in my quick review. We need not let the exceptions drive the rule. One
> quick indicator is “accepts payments”. I bet we could all come up with a
> dozen are so unambiguous indicators quickly. Let the edge cases be
> adjudicated.
>
> --
>
> John Bambenek
>
>
> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:28, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
> michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>
> John
>
>
>
> While the final report I pointed you to contains the conclusions I’d
> recommend you take the time to have a look over the PPSAI deliberations on
> this matter.
>
>
>
> You talked about “commercial use”, which is understandable, however, as
> the discussions show it is not as simple as a difference between legal
> person and natural person.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Michele
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mr Michele Neylon
>
> Blacknight Solutions
>
> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
> https://www.blacknight.com/
>
> https://blacknight.blog/
>
> https://ceo.hosting/
>
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>
> -------------------------------
>
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>
> Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:06
> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian
> muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
>
>
>
> Ok, well having read that I believe my answer is still a valid response to
> Volker. You ask during registration, make it mandatory to answer one way or
> the other, and in complaints simple use the definitions in use in the
> jurisdiction involved. Surely every country on earth knows the difference
> between legal and natural persons, and I think tax law is an easy barometer
> for determining commercial activity. Yes, it puts some effort on providers
> who want to avoid “content” but I reiterate the point of contention here:
>
>
>
> That those who actually work in security and those who actually work in
> protecting privacy (with lone exceptions of DPAs) are of the loud, firm,
> and unanimous contention that not having access to this information in a
> free, easy, and programmatic way while lead to a dramatic and clear lose of
> privacy far beyond the presence of emails in whois/rds. The policy position
> that we must extend full privacy to everyone (despite a mandate to extend
> that far) is fundamentally unnecessary and that the security and stability
> of the internet which is actually in ICANNs mission is more important than
> convenience of registries/registrars in dealing with how to define
> commercial which is NOT in ICANNs mission.
>
> --
>
> John Bambenek
>
>
> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
> michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>
> Here’s the final report:
>
>
>
> https://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/raa/ppsai-final-07dec15-en.pdf
>
>
>
> The relevant section is from page 39 onwards and again from page 55
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Michele
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mr Michele Neylon
>
> Blacknight Solutions
>
> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
> https://www.blacknight.com/
>
> https://blacknight.blog/
>
> https://ceo.hosting/
>
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>
> -------------------------------
>
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>
> Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 14:31
> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian
> muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
>
>
>
> For those not present, can you summarize or at least point to a document
> we can read? Stating that something was discussed somewhere gives me little
> to go on as to what information you’d like me to know.
>
>
>
> --
>
> John Bambenek
>
>
> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:14, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
> michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>
> This issue was discussed in depth during the PPSAI (proxy privacy) PDP.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mr Michele Neylon
>
> Blacknight Solutions
>
> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
> https://www.blacknight.com/
>
> https://blacknight.blog/
>
> https://ceo.hosting/
>
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>
> -------------------------------
>
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>
> Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
> *From: *gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of
> Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 11:24
> *To: *sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>
> *Cc: *RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
>
>
>
> Please provide a workable, reasonable method of identifying the domain
> names used in commercial manner amongst the existing hundreds of million
> registered domains. Please also identify how this determination can be
> updated automatically once the use of a domain name changes.
>
>
>
> The fact is that commercial use is content. ICANN does not deal with
> content except for very small and specific areas. ICANN and registrars have
> no relationship with the content that is published under a domain name. We
> certainly have no control over specific uses.
>
>
>
> These details belong on the websites, as is provided in the laws in Europe
> and other jurisdictions. There is no need to duplicate this in whois.
>
>
>
> Volker
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9. Mar 2018, at 07:49, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Private persons (including private persons in a public career or a career
> of public exposure) need privacy. Why is this notion extended to protect
> online commercial entities of varying ethical standards? Does
> Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce have a right to privacy of its
> Registrant data?
>
>
>
> Their customers don't look for contact information from RDS, but in the
> entity's commercial web site, but the information is not there. Many online
> entities operate from behind layers of veil that separate them from
> customers and enable them to carry on their commercial activity with
> minimal or non-existent accountability.
>
>
>
> Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce sells millions of air tickets but
> does not seem to have a building somewhere, and/or does not have an
> employee with a name. Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce takes your
> money, takes your information without disclosing any of its own, and does
> not have a phone number or answer email messages (operates through call
> centers, answers email messages by templates) when you are stranded
> Midway with a ticket that doesn't work. Yourcasino takes your credit card
> number, yourpharmacy takes your money and medical data, yourholiday owns
> your passport, and all these entities don't have an email address, phone
> number or a building with a person.
>
>
>
> Could we do away with this notion of (Registrant)data privacy where it
> concerns an online entity that carries out commercial monetary transactions
> online? That would require us to discriminate between private persons and
> e-commerce entities, which would be a complex process - agreed.
> Nevertheless, could we think about this?
>
>
>
> Sivasubramanian M
>
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>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
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