[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
theo geurts
gtheo at xs4all.nl
Sun Mar 11 20:00:38 UTC 2018
Thanks John,
I would turn that around, If regional or national laws already fix those
issues, then we should not come up with a solution that will never work
one a global level, we have a very limited remit here.
Theo
On 11-3-2018 20:52, John Bambenek wrote:
> We are trying to develop a globally sounds solution to RDS that fits
> the needs of all stakeholders instead of using a tailored and specific
> law and applying that far beyond what it is intended to do.
>
> --
> John Bambenek
>
> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:49, theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl
> <mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl>> wrote:
>
>> What are we trying to solve here? And is that up to this WG?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Theo
>>
>>
>> On 11-3-2018 20:44, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
>>> It is simple. Every county in the world has a process for creating a
>>> legal person. That process is very different from acknowledging the
>>> creation of a natural person.
>>>
>>> In an overwhelming majority if cases neither natural or legal
>>> persons will attempt to deceive you as to which they are. Microsoft
>>> isn’t going to say their domain is personal. People aren’t going to
>>> tell you they are really corporations.
>>>
>>> In those rare cases of deception, every country on earth has a legal
>>> definition and surely a process of determining which is which.
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Bambenek
>>>
>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> If it was simple we wouldn’t have spent as long as we did in the
>>>> PPSAI PDP discussing and debating it.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Michele
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>
>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>
>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>
>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>
>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>
>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>
>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>
>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>>>> Park,Sleaty
>>>>
>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>
>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>
>>>> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
>>>> <mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
>>>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:38
>>>> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com
>>>> <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
>>>> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian muthusamy
>>>> <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG
>>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy
>>>> Standards
>>>>
>>>> The legal vs natural person debate is simple. Surely we can agree
>>>> on that.
>>>>
>>>> I think there is a great deal of overcomplicating commercial
>>>> purpose just in my quick review. We need not let the exceptions
>>>> drive the rule. One quick indicator is “accepts payments”. I bet we
>>>> could all come up with a dozen are so unambiguous indicators
>>>> quickly. Let the edge cases be adjudicated.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:28, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>>>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> While the final report I pointed you to contains the
>>>> conclusions I’d recommend you take the time to have a look over
>>>> the PPSAI deliberations on this matter.
>>>>
>>>> You talked about “commercial use”, which is understandable,
>>>> however, as the discussions show it is not as simple as a
>>>> difference between legal person and natural person.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Michele
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>
>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>
>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>
>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>
>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>
>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>
>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>
>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>>>> Park,Sleaty
>>>>
>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>
>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>
>>>> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
>>>> <mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
>>>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:06
>>>> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com
>>>> <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
>>>> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian muthusamy
>>>> <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG
>>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data
>>>> Privacy Standards
>>>>
>>>> Ok, well having read that I believe my answer is still a valid
>>>> response to Volker. You ask during registration, make it
>>>> mandatory to answer one way or the other, and in complaints
>>>> simple use the definitions in use in the jurisdiction involved.
>>>> Surely every country on earth knows the difference between
>>>> legal and natural persons, and I think tax law is an easy
>>>> barometer for determining commercial activity. Yes, it puts
>>>> some effort on providers who want to avoid “content” but I
>>>> reiterate the point of contention here:
>>>>
>>>> That those who actually work in security and those who actually
>>>> work in protecting privacy (with lone exceptions of DPAs) are
>>>> of the loud, firm, and unanimous contention that not having
>>>> access to this information in a free, easy, and programmatic
>>>> way while lead to a dramatic and clear lose of privacy far
>>>> beyond the presence of emails in whois/rds. The policy position
>>>> that we must extend full privacy to everyone (despite a mandate
>>>> to extend that far) is fundamentally unnecessary and that the
>>>> security and stability of the internet which is actually in
>>>> ICANNs mission is more important than convenience of
>>>> registries/registrars in dealing with how to define commercial
>>>> which is NOT in ICANNs mission.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>>>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Here’s the final report:
>>>>
>>>> https://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/raa/ppsai-final-07dec15-en.pdf
>>>>
>>>> The relevant section is from page 39 onwards and again from
>>>> page 55
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Michele
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>
>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>
>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>
>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>
>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>
>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>
>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>
>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
>>>> Business Park,Sleaty
>>>>
>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>
>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>
>>>> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
>>>> <mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
>>>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 14:31
>>>> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com
>>>> <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
>>>> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian
>>>> muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG
>>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data
>>>> Privacy Standards
>>>>
>>>> For those not present, can you summarize or at least point
>>>> to a document we can read? Stating that something was
>>>> discussed somewhere gives me little to go on as to what
>>>> information you’d like me to know.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:14, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>>>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This issue was discussed in depth during the PPSAI
>>>> (proxy privacy) PDP.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>
>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>
>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>
>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>
>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>
>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>
>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>
>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
>>>> Business Park,Sleaty
>>>>
>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>
>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>
>>>> *From: *gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on behalf
>>>> of Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
>>>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 11:24
>>>> *To: *sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>
>>>> *Cc: *RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds
>>>> Data Privacy Standards
>>>>
>>>> Please provide a workable, reasonable method of
>>>> identifying the domain names used in commercial manner
>>>> amongst the existing hundreds of million registered
>>>> domains. Please also identify how this determination
>>>> can be updated automatically once the use of a domain
>>>> name changes.
>>>>
>>>> The fact is that commercial use is content. ICANN does
>>>> not deal with content except for very small and
>>>> specific areas. ICANN and registrars have no
>>>> relationship with the content that is published under a
>>>> domain name. We certainly have no control over specific
>>>> uses.
>>>>
>>>> These details belong on the websites, as is provided in
>>>> the laws in Europe and other jurisdictions. There is no
>>>> need to duplicate this in whois.
>>>>
>>>> Volker
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9. Mar 2018, at 07:49, sivasubramanian muthusamy
>>>> <6.internet at gmail.com<mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Private persons (including private persons in a
>>>> public career or a career of public exposure) need
>>>> privacy. Why is this notion extended to protect
>>>> online commercial entities of varying ethical
>>>> standards? Does
>>>> Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce have a right
>>>> to privacy of its Registrant data?
>>>>
>>>> Their customers don't look for contact information
>>>> from RDS, but in the entity's commercial web site,
>>>> but the information is not there. Many online
>>>> entities operate from behind layers of veil that
>>>> separate them from customers and enable them to
>>>> carry on their commercial activity with minimal or
>>>> non-existent accountability.
>>>>
>>>> Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce sells
>>>> millions of air tickets but does not seem to have a
>>>> building somewhere, and/or does not have an
>>>> employee with a
>>>> name. Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce takes
>>>> your money, takes your information without
>>>> disclosing any of its own, and does not have a
>>>> phone number or answer email messages (operates
>>>> through call centers, answers email messages by
>>>> templates) when you are stranded Midway with a
>>>> ticket that doesn't work. Yourcasino takes your
>>>> credit card number, yourpharmacy takes your money
>>>> and medical data, yourholiday owns your passport,
>>>> and all these entities don't have an email address,
>>>> phone number or a building with a person.
>>>>
>>>> Could we do away with this notion of
>>>> (Registrant)data privacy where it concerns an
>>>> online entity that carries out commercial monetary
>>>> transactions online? That would require us to
>>>> discriminate between private persons and e-commerce
>>>> entities, which would be a complex process -
>>>> agreed. Nevertheless, could we think about this?
>>>>
>>>> Sivasubramanian M
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>
>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>
>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
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