[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards
Sam Lanfranco
sam at lanfranco.net
Sun Mar 11 22:05:10 UTC 2018
Another complication is the B-Corp, or Social Business. It is a hybrid
between a not-for-profit NGO and a for-profit-business.
Legislation and case law are slowly building on that front, and it will
cause complications for policies and statutes that
draw a firm line between commercial and non-commercial.
Sam L.
On 3/11/2018 5:47 PM, Volker Greimann - Key-Systems GmbHz wrote:
> Very true. German courts have held otherwise private websites using
> Adsense advertizing as being commercially used.
>
> So there would be large differences.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 11. Mar 2018, at 17:39, David Cake <dave at davecake.net
> <mailto:dave at davecake.net>> wrote:
>
>> Yes. What counts as commercial use varies by jurisdiction. It we try
>> to force groups into a commercial category based on some single
>> metric (such as “accepts payments” ), then many will be miscategorised.
>>
>> I agree very much with Greg that this is a yawning rabbit hole of
>> dubious value. It has yet to be demonstrated that it has any
>> relevance to our discussions.
>>
>> David
>>
>>> On 12 Mar 2018, at 4:00 am, theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl
>>> <mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks John,
>>>
>>> I would turn that around, If regional or national laws already fix
>>> those issues, then we should not come up with a solution that will
>>> never work one a global level, we have a very limited remit here.
>>>
>>> Theo
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11-3-2018 20:52, John Bambenek wrote:
>>>> We are trying to develop a globally sounds solution to RDS that
>>>> fits the needs of all stakeholders instead of using a tailored and
>>>> specific law and applying that far beyond what it is intended to do.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:49, theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl
>>>> <mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What are we trying to solve here? And is that up to this WG?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Theo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11-3-2018 20:44, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
>>>>>> It is simple. Every county in the world has a process for
>>>>>> creating a legal person. That process is very different from
>>>>>> acknowledging the creation of a natural person.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In an overwhelming majority if cases neither natural or legal
>>>>>> persons will attempt to deceive you as to which they are.
>>>>>> Microsoft isn’t going to say their domain is personal. People
>>>>>> aren’t going to tell you they are really corporations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In those rare cases of deception, every country on earth has a
>>>>>> legal definition and surely a process of determining which is which.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>>>>>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>> If it was simple we wouldn’t have spent as long as we did in the
>>>>>>> PPSAI PDP discussing and debating it.
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Michele
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>>>>>>> Park,Sleaty
>>>>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>>>> *From:*John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
>>>>>>> *Date:*Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:38
>>>>>>> *To:*Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
>>>>>>> *Cc:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian muthusamy
>>>>>>> <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG
>>>>>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy
>>>>>>> Standards
>>>>>>> The legal vs natural person debate is simple. Surely we can
>>>>>>> agree on that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think there is a great deal of overcomplicating commercial
>>>>>>> purpose just in my quick review. We need not let the exceptions
>>>>>>> drive the rule. One quick indicator is “accepts payments”. I bet
>>>>>>> we could all come up with a dozen are so unambiguous indicators
>>>>>>> quickly. Let the edge cases be adjudicated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:28, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>>>>>>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>> While the final report I pointed you to contains the
>>>>>>> conclusions I’d recommend you take the time to have a look
>>>>>>> over the PPSAI deliberations on this matter.
>>>>>>> You talked about “commercial use”, which is understandable,
>>>>>>> however, as the discussions show it is not as simple as a
>>>>>>> difference between legal person and natural person.
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Michele
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
>>>>>>> Business Park,Sleaty
>>>>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>>>> *From:*John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
>>>>>>> *Date:*Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:06
>>>>>>> *To:*Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
>>>>>>> *Cc:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian
>>>>>>> muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG
>>>>>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data
>>>>>>> Privacy Standards
>>>>>>> Ok, well having read that I believe my answer is still a
>>>>>>> valid response to Volker. You ask during registration, make
>>>>>>> it mandatory to answer one way or the other, and in
>>>>>>> complaints simple use the definitions in use in the
>>>>>>> jurisdiction involved. Surely every country on earth knows
>>>>>>> the difference between legal and natural persons, and I
>>>>>>> think tax law is an easy barometer for determining
>>>>>>> commercial activity. Yes, it puts some effort on providers
>>>>>>> who want to avoid “content” but I reiterate the point of
>>>>>>> contention here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That those who actually work in security and those who
>>>>>>> actually work in protecting privacy (with lone exceptions of
>>>>>>> DPAs) are of the loud, firm, and unanimous contention that
>>>>>>> not having access to this information in a free, easy, and
>>>>>>> programmatic way while lead to a dramatic and clear lose of
>>>>>>> privacy far beyond the presence of emails in whois/rds. The
>>>>>>> policy position that we must extend full privacy to everyone
>>>>>>> (despite a mandate to extend that far) is fundamentally
>>>>>>> unnecessary and that the security and stability of the
>>>>>>> internet which is actually in ICANNs mission is more
>>>>>>> important than convenience of registries/registrars in
>>>>>>> dealing with how to define commercial which is NOT in ICANNs
>>>>>>> mission.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>>>>>>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here’s the final report:
>>>>>>> https://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/raa/ppsai-final-07dec15-en.pdf
>>>>>>> The relevant section is from page 39 onwards and again
>>>>>>> from page 55
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Michele
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
>>>>>>> Business Park,Sleaty
>>>>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>>>> *From:*John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
>>>>>>> *Date:*Sunday 11 March 2018 at 14:31
>>>>>>> *To:*Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
>>>>>>> *Cc:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, sivasubramanian
>>>>>>> muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>, RDS WG
>>>>>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data
>>>>>>> Privacy Standards
>>>>>>> For those not present, can you summarize or at least
>>>>>>> point to a document we can read? Stating that something
>>>>>>> was discussed somewhere gives me little to go on as to
>>>>>>> what information you’d like me to know.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:14, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>>>>>>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This issue was discussed in depth during the PPSAI
>>>>>>> (proxy privacy) PDP.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>>>>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>>>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>>>> https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>>>> https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>>>>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit
>>>>>>> 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>>>>>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>>>>>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>>>>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on
>>>>>>> behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
>>>>>>> *Date:*Sunday 11 March 2018 at 11:24
>>>>>>> *To:*sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> *Cc:*RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds
>>>>>>> Data Privacy Standards
>>>>>>> Please provide a workable, reasonable method of
>>>>>>> identifying the domain names used in commercial
>>>>>>> manner amongst the existing hundreds of million
>>>>>>> registered domains. Please also identify how this
>>>>>>> determination can be updated automatically once the
>>>>>>> use of a domain name changes.
>>>>>>> The fact is that commercial use is content. ICANN
>>>>>>> does not deal with content except for very small and
>>>>>>> specific areas. ICANN and registrars have no
>>>>>>> relationship with the content that is published
>>>>>>> under a domain name. We certainly have no control
>>>>>>> over specific uses.
>>>>>>> These details belong on the websites, as is provided
>>>>>>> in the laws in Europe and other jurisdictions. There
>>>>>>> is no need to duplicate this in whois.
>>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9. Mar 2018, at 07:49, sivasubramanian
>>>>>>> muthusamy
>>>>>>> <6.internet at gmail.com<mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Private persons (including private persons in a
>>>>>>> public career or a career of public exposure)
>>>>>>> need privacy. Why is this notion extended to
>>>>>>> protect online commercial entities of varying
>>>>>>> ethical standards? Does
>>>>>>> Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce have a
>>>>>>> right to privacy of its Registrant data?
>>>>>>> Their customers don't look for contact
>>>>>>> information from RDS, but in the entity's
>>>>>>> commercial web site, but the information is not
>>>>>>> there. Many online entities operate from behind
>>>>>>> layers of veil that separate them from customers
>>>>>>> and enable them to carry on their commercial
>>>>>>> activity with minimal or non-existent
>>>>>>> accountability.
>>>>>>> Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce sells
>>>>>>> millions of air tickets but does not seem to
>>>>>>> have a building somewhere, and/or does not have
>>>>>>> an employee with a
>>>>>>> name. Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce takes
>>>>>>> your money, takes your information without
>>>>>>> disclosing any of its own, and does not have a
>>>>>>> phone number or answer email messages (operates
>>>>>>> through call centers, answers email messages by
>>>>>>> templates) when you are stranded Midway with a
>>>>>>> ticket that doesn't work. Yourcasino takes your
>>>>>>> credit card number, yourpharmacy takes your
>>>>>>> money and medical data, yourholiday owns your
>>>>>>> passport, and all these entities don't have an
>>>>>>> email address, phone number or a building with a
>>>>>>> person.
>>>>>>> Could we do away with this notion of
>>>>>>> (Registrant)data privacy where it concerns an
>>>>>>> online entity that carries out commercial
>>>>>>> monetary transactions online? That would require
>>>>>>> us to discriminate between private persons and
>>>>>>> e-commerce entities, which would be a complex
>>>>>>> process - agreed. Nevertheless, could we think
>>>>>>> about this?
>>>>>>> Sivasubramanian M
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur
>>>>>>> Verfügung.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Web:
>>>>>>> www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> /
>>>>>>> www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
>>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> /
>>>>>>> www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan
>>>>>>> bei Facebook:
>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>>>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur
>>>>>>> für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form
>>>>>>> der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe
>>>>>>> an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte
>>>>>>> diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so
>>>>>>> bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder
>>>>>>> telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not
>>>>>>> hesitate to contact us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>>> - legal department -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>> vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Web:
>>>>>>> www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> /
>>>>>>> www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
>>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> /
>>>>>>> www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on
>>>>>>> Facebook and stay updated:
>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for
>>>>>>> the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it
>>>>>>> is not permitted to publish any content of this
>>>>>>> email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or
>>>>>>> rely on this e-mail. If an addressing
>>>>>>> or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail,
>>>>>>> kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail
>>>>>>> or contacting us by telephone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
--
------------------------------------------------
"It is a disgrace to be rich and honoured
in an unjust state" -Confucius
邦有道，贫且贱焉，耻也。邦无道，富且贵焉，耻也
------------------------------------------------
Visiting Prof, Xi'an Jaiotong-Liverpool Univ, Suzhou, China
Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus & Senior Scholar)
Econ, York U., Toronto, Ontario, CANADA - M3J 1P3
email: sam at lanfranco.net Skype: slanfranco
blog: https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com
Phone: +1 613-476-0429 cell: +1 416-816-2852
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/attachments/20180311/e45406bc/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the gnso-rds-pdp-wg
mailing list