[gnso-rpm-wg] Mp3, Attendance, AC recording & AC Chat Review of all Rights Protection Mechanisms (RPMs) in all gTLDs PDP Working Group

Terri Agnew terri.agnew at icann.org
Wed Feb 15 18:43:24 UTC 2017

Dear All,


Please find the attendance of the call attached to this email. The MP3,
Adobe Connect recording and Adobe Connect chat below for the Review of all
Rights Protection Mechanisms (RPMs) in all gTLDs PDP Working Group call held
on Wednesday, 15 February 2017 at 17:00 UTC. Attendance of the call is
posted on agenda wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/TZ3DAw


MP3:   https://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-rpm-review-15feb17-en.mp3


Adobe Connect recording:

The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master
Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar

** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **


Mailing list archives:  <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/>


Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/wCWAAw


Thank you.

Kind regards,

Terri Agnew



Adobe Connect chat transcript for 15 February 2017:     

    Terri Agnew:Welcome to the Review of all Rights Protection Mechanisms
(RPMs) in all gTLDs PDP Working Group on Wednesday, 15 February 2017 at
17:00 UTC for 60 minutes.

  Terri Agnew:wiki agenda page:

  George Kirikos:Hi folks.

  Mary Wong:Hello George

  George Kirikos:Hi Mary and Terry, the rhyming duo. :-)

  George Kirikos:Hi Gerald.

  Mary Wong:@George, if Berry (Cobb) comes on, you'd have a staff trio :)

  George Kirikos:lol

  jscottevans:Hello all. I am now on the line

  Mary Wong:Hi J. Scott!

  Mary Wong:J. "Harry Potter Bad Boy" Scott Evans

  Mary Wong:NCPH Intersessional

  Mary Wong:Apparently RPMs was on the agenda today

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Hello All

  Steve Levy:Hi folks

  Theo Geurts:'lo

  Terri Agnew:everyone can scroll themselves

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Do I get it right that having "T[banana icon][onion
icon]H[bike icon]E" sign might have THE protected by TMCH, in case the same
person orders 3 small toys 3d printed with the same graphical sequence and
shipped to someone who paid (neighbour) via postal delivery? (so the proof
of use in in place)

  Griffin Barnett:Agree Mary -- there appears to be coinfusiion here
regarding terminology.  The TMCH guidelines uses teh term "device/image"
marks as opposed to "design" marks I believe

  Griffin Barnett:Agree we should revert to them regarding their
processes/rules and use of this aspect of the TMCH

  Vinzenz Heussler:This is what they say on the website:

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):could we request examples of accepted/rejected
imaginary marks with description of what was wrong/right?

  George Kirikos:So Disney would be able to register "CARS", for their
design mark (associated with the film)?

  Martin Silva:The GNSO already discussed this, and the board approved that
design marks were not to be take as text.


  Martin Silva:4.1

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):I hope nobody registers NIC in TMCH :)

  Mary Wong:Staff will follow up with Rebecca as well

  Martin Silva:Are we addressing direclty that? becaus it is part of the
hard letter that is already there, is not a new debate.

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):so all nic.TLD to be protected  from registries :)

  George Kirikos:CARS is an easy one.

  George Kirikos:(see link above)

  Martin Silva:Delloitte is not following this 4.1

  George Kirikos:Sure.

  Mary Wong:@Martin, it's not necessarily as a design mark per se, it's
about how the TMCH accepts marks that have design elements

  Martin Silva:exaclty, and doesn't 4.1 resolves that doubt?

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Agree with Susan.

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:The question is about marks
received by the TMCH, not allowed by a RO

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):a Registry had a right to start from the very
begining to limit registrations to a region, for example .. not may so brave

  Vinzenz Heussler:agree with Susan too

  Martin Silva:But why have a diferent criteria?

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):*not many registreis were so brave to limit
registrations to a particular region

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:I think we probably should
have asked the question that resulted in this answer, but the answer here
doesn't answer the question asked.

  Martin Silva:there is no relevant differnece in thos cases

  Mathieu Weill:Yes, Mary, Massimo made that suggestion and I support that

  Martin Silva:The GNSO Recommendations are absolutly valid for the TMCH

  Mary Wong:@Mathieu, thank you

  Mathieu Weill:There is a Comité Champagne

  Jon Nevett:they do

  Mathieu Weill:I think Massimo could provide that information

  Mathieu Weill:There are bodies in some, not all cases

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:The only way you have the
right to submit champagne is if you can attest that you have a TM, right?

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:What is the list of people
that can make that attestation?

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):a company selling napkins of a colour of the
Champagne wine?

  Marie Pattullo:There certainly are for Cognac, Champagne & some others -
not sure if all have one.

  Mathieu Weill:@Kristine : it will depend on the jurisdiction... 

  Georges Nahitchevansky:Yes there are certifying bodies for various
designations and they would be the ones that would be able to pursue

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:the TMCH doesn't care about
jurisdiction really.  For their purposes, they need a mark in some


  Mathieu Weill:Yes, that's why the question is really interesting

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):I thought TMCH mostly care about the payment for the
services :)

  Mary Wong:The question Deloitte was asked: "How many TMCH records include
a TM+50 list; and how many are on this list on average? How many
registrations were made for entries on the TM+50 list?"

  George Kirikos:So, is that roughly 1% of the TMCH recordals? (375 out of
30,000 ??)

  Paul Tattersfield:Are there any issues if two different companies submit
the same wordmark - Say Apple for Apple Inc. & Apple Music

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:for the record, I think the
information would be great if we can figure out how to get it.

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Paul, what do you mean by
issues?  the TMCH doesn't apply substantive criteria.  both would be

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):what happens when two companies registered same
THEMARK in TMCH and one of them registers it?

  Paul Tattersfield:Can they both ocexist in the database without causing

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Yes

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:The registry can apply
additional criteria that may give one mark preference, but the TMCH is

  Paul Tattersfield:thanks Kristine

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:It's simply a db

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):so the first company recieves Claim notice, when
both actually have the same rights?

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:yep

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:They can disregard it.

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Funny story, if you register
your mark in the TMCH and then you wait till GA to register your name, the
brand owner gets their OWN claims notice. :)

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):TMCH got some glitches, no excuses, horrible service
from IBM

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:agree J Scott

  George Kirikos:#13 is not for Deloitte to say either.

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Q 13, also not for TMCH

  Griffin Barnett:Agree

  susan payne:yes, agree

  Paul Keating:Please read teh question #.  I have a terrible connecdtion

  George Kirikos:#14 now, Paul Keating.

  Paul Keating:thank you J. Scott

  Vaibhav Aggarwal, NCSG:Language 

  Vaibhav Aggarwal, NCSG:Developing countries have a lot to do localisation
of conetent - Especially in Language

  Mary Wong:@Kristine, I will look

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):actually if you try to read Russian text of TMCH ...
your eyes will bleed

  George Kirikos:+1 Kristine. Is this a question about statistics by country
of recordal?

  susan payne:yes we did. i think it';s captured in the education section to
the extent they answered

  George Kirikos:i.e. # of recordals for USA, Canada, vs. developing

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:George, we were trying to
determine access 

  Vaibhav Aggarwal, NCSG:+1 Kristine

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):I mean

  George Kirikos:Right, Kristine....by knowing the stats, one can perhaps
infer the level of access? (i.e. if only 1% are from Africa, etc.)

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:recordals might tell part of
the story, but we want to know from which countries brand owners and their
counsel were participating.

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Yes, George.

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):so they failed the simple task to just properly
translate a page 

  George Kirikos:They do translate their website into multiple languages,
which is a good first step for accessibility.

  George Kirikos:There is a list of agents at:
bDVji8QCfgMrv4x4TZNPncyAZBgSyIbrlXWs7q60A&e=  so one could figure it out.

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:fortunately, we can probably
check that ourselves.....sounds like the Ru page is poorly translated.
Doesn't bode well for developing countries.

Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):anyway, prices for TMCH might be quite high for
developing countries (different price of business e.t.c)

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Good job with the self-help,
George.  I, for one, need to spend some time on the site.  We want to ask
questions having done some research.

  Paul Keating:J. Scott,  Given your comment regarding the purpose, I found
that Deloitte's responses were not very helpful in that the responses were
general in nature whcih by their nature seem to preclude making any specific
suggestions.  Perhaps I am mistaken but that is my view.

  Paul Keating:Sorry but I have horrible connections (Ive tried all methods)

  Paul Keating:so I may have missed something

  Mary Wong:Deloitte also noted that outreach and education are not part of
the TMCH scope either.

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):do they care who pays ... I am not so sure

  Terri Agnew:@Paul, if a dial out on the telephone is needed, please let me

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Vaibhav, that may also tell
part of the story.  If people in developing countries used a TM agent, we'd
still be missing part of it.

  susan payne:Vaibhav, the person who submits the mark into the TMCH is not
the mark owner, generally

  susan payne:yes exactly J Scott

  Mary Wong:@J Scott, exactly

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:I think there are pieces that
we can use to get what we need, but there won't be one definitive source.

  Vinzenz Heussler:#15

  Griffin Barnett:I think we skipped Q15?

  George Kirikos:We're on #15.

  George Kirikos:Although, it's not really for Deloitte.

  Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Right, no Q for Deloitte on
#15 or 16

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):if TMCH database is not private - then there is a
risk of another clearinghouse with lower prices:)

  Terri Agnew:The call for the Review of all Rights Protection Mechanisms
(RPMs) in all gTLDs PDP Working Group is scheduled for Wednesday, 22
February 2017 at 04:00 UTC for 60 minutes.

  George Kirikos:Tuesday night in North America.

 Vaibhav Aggarwal, NCSG::-)

  Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):bye all 

  Vaibhav Aggarwal, NCSG:Thanks JScott & Everyone. Allways a Pleasure

  Griffin Barnett:Thanks all

  Steve Levy:Thanks aall

  Paul Tattersfield:thanks all bye

  Vinzenz Heussler:bye to everyone

 Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Or late for some.  See you next

  Vaibhav Aggarwal, NCSG::-)

  Marie Pattullo:Thanks!

  George Kirikos:Bye folks.

  susan payne:thanks

  David McAuley (RySG):Thanks, bye all



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