[gnso-rpm-wg] Correction to UDRP data on 2-June TM Claims Sub-Team call

Fri Jun 9 13:25:59 UTC 2017

‎George K

Again you are trying to sweep a major problem under the rug. First, let me ask you this: Have you ever litigated in court and in particular litigated a case to a full resolution. If you have, the cost of litigating is huge. So, in your world, I register a domain name for $35 US and you then spend hundreds of thousand dollars pursuing me in court. Even if I default and don't oppose your court action, you will end up spending thousands of dollars in the matter. Oh, and by the way if you have to sue in me in certain jurisdictions, we might be litigating together for many years. The court system is certainly one tool to use to resolve these problems, but the UDRP and URS are way faster and more cost effective.

Second, you keep talking about the harm as a hill of beans‎. If you spend any time reviewing the mounds of literature and studies done on cybersquatting, fraud, brand hijacking, counterfeiting, phishing etc perhaps you might realize that what you are arguing is not supportable. The harm is real, is growing and ultimately has an impact on consumers. Your attempt to say that because there are only x number of proceedings in relation to Y number of domain names registered shows this is not a problem is a red herring at best. My car example was meant to illustrate that. If there are hundreds of billions of car rides a year and the total number of accidents due to drunk driving or texting, for example, are less than 0.1% of all car rides, that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

Lastly, your parallel system of justice argument simply does not hold up. If you want to go down that road, then look at all the parallel systems that exist in various areas such as housing, health care, insurance, securities trading, wealth management, ‎trade disputes, car accidents etc. These systems all exist, for example, to deal with specific problems, to streamline processes and provide efficient resolution of specific matters, and to not clog up the courts with thousands upon thousands of additional cases.

At this point, I think we have both staked out our positions, so for the sake of the group I do not think further communications on this are necessary. You have made your position clear. Let's just say that we agree to disagree and move on.

  Original Message
From: George Kirikos
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 8:19 AM
To: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Correction to UDRP data on 2-June TM Claims Sub-Team call

Hello,

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Nahitchevansky, Georges
<ghn at kilpatricktownsend.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, I think you are going down the wrong rabbit hole and ignoring the big picture problem. The UDRP and URS are not the only aspects of this issue. They are tools that were created to help address problems of cyberquatting -- problems that include myriad ways that fraud, counterfeiting, brand hijacking and other harms have been perpetrated on consumers and brand owners.

Yes, I'm certainly aware that there are other ways to deal with the
alleged problem. Fraud, counterfeiting, brand hijacking and other
harms also exist in the offline world, and in the online world that
don't involve domain names. Somehow, the world hasn't stopped spinning
despite the lack of a special "RPM" that parallels the courts for
those matters.

Explain to me what is so special about domain names that a parallel
justice system has arisen for what is at best a "de minimis" problem.
Courts are certainly sufficient.

> If I registered GeorgeKirikos.xyz and used the domain name to attempt to steal ‎personal information from consumers or sell them junky products, you might have a different view of the issue.

No, not at all. There are courts to handle such situations.

> The problem here is far greater than what you try to portray. Every day there are probably thousands of demand letters sent out around the world to try to address these problems‎, there are thousands of hours spent investigating and addressing these matters etc. The costs, needless to say, are staggering and substantially more than the small registration fee that many cybersquatters pay to get a domain name for the various schemes that we now have seen for over 20 years.

Yet, out of all these alleged cases, only a tiny, tiny fraction amount
to more than a hill of beans, and are worth pursuing even using a
relatively low cost procedure such as the UDRP.

There are many, many personal and contractual disputes between
individuals, companies, etc. (unrelated to domain names). By your
reasoning "the problem" between those members of society are "far
greater" than what appear in the court system.

The costs of uploading a copyright infringing song or video are also
quite low, in fact less than the cost of a domain name. The cost of
sending out a defamatory email, tweet or Facebook post is essentially
zero. Yet, there's no parallel system of justice in those cases, and
instead bad guys are brought to court in the most egregious cases.

> To put things in perspective, there are hundreds of millions of cars in the world and everyday millions if not billions or car rides are taken around the world. The percentage of accidents are relatively small by comparison, and the number of car accident matters that end up in court is even a much much smaller number. The point is that we don't sit around and say their shouldn't be laws that govern driving and/or to use to resolve car accidents, that there shouldn't be arbitration or court regimes for resolving car accidents etc or that we shouldn't have commissions rethinking or discussing the laws or ways to handle car accident matters. We have laws and procedures for handling these issue. The rights protection mechanisms are in the same fashion regimes put in place to help address ongoing problems -- real problems that exist and which by every legitimate study (FBI, Interpol and others) I have seen are growing in scope.

You seem to be arguing my position. I'm arguing that courts and laws
are sufficient. Why is a non-profit corporation trying to reinvent the
global judicial system?

In the 1990s, an immature internet organization was pressured into
developing a parallel justice system. 20 years later, the internet is
far more mature, and has been incorporated into everyday life. No
"special" forums are needed for "internet disputes". There's no need
for the adjective "internet" -- they're just disputes, everyday
disputes that can be handled by the "everyday" law.

It's time to re-think mistakes of the past. If I smash into your car,
you can't foist a parallel justice system upon me. And there are far
more car accidents than there are domain name disputes.

> So, in closing, while I understand that you may have hostility to the notion of RPMs, I would ask that you try to focus on the big picture here of the overall harm that has and is occurring and how best to address it.

And I would ask you to also keep an open mind, and think deeply about
why this parallel system of justice exists, and who exactly it is
serving. In many ways, it's a small "cottage industry", that serves a
tiny percentage of vocal groups that have a selfish stake in
perpetuating it. When one looks at the big picture, the world could
certainly adjust if it disappeared.

Sincerely,

George Kirikos
416-588-0269
http://www.leap.com/
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