[gnso-rpm-wg] FW: TMCH data on abandonment
J. Scott Evans
jsevans at adobe.com
Mon Jun 12 12:43:14 UTC 2017
I do not nor will I ever support disclosure of the marks registered in the TMCH.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 12, 2017, at 5:03 AM, Paul Keating <Paul at law.es> wrote:
>
> "what we don't know probably exceeds what we do²
>
> Could NOT agree more.
>
> I suggest we focus on what information we need in order to properly
> analyze and discuss the issue. For this I see us in need of the following:
>
> A listing of the marks in the TMCH
> Information from registrars that may indicate abandonment in the context
> of the claims notice process. I cannot seriously believe that the
> registrars do not have this data given its importance in the continued
> process of refining the UI and maximizing revenues. If it is an issue of
> confidentiality, I am happy to limit the disclosure of the information to
> Staff or if that is not acceptable then to a third party who can be
> retained (and paid) to review and analyze the data for us. Failing that
> we could perhaps approach several of the larger registrars in this area
> (new Gtld registrations) and ask that they run a test for a specified
> period. IF that results in a delay we can defer this issue until we have
> the data.
>
> Paul
>
> On 6/9/17, 6:22 PM, "Phil Corwin" <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf
> of psc at vlaw-dc.com> wrote:
>
>> This thread has wound on quite a bit since Brian's original post, but
>> since my name came up in his let me add a few thoughts.
>>
>> Brian's email stated:
>> > In the transcript for the Sub Team for Trademark Claims call on
>> Friday, 02
>>>> June 2017 at 16:00 UTC, there was some discussion on
>> abandonment rates...
>> > Phil Corwin suggested that if the non-TMCH-related abandonment
>> rate was 80% then it may
>>>> be reasonable to conclude that there¹s not a material
>> difference between
>>>> those subject to claims notices.
>>>>
>>>> Mindful that it may be difficult or even impossible to
>> obtain the desired
>>>> data (a number of reasons, including competitive
>> (dis-)advantages, were
>>>> raised on the call), a recent GoDaddy post informs us
>> that ³An average
>>>> website loses 69 percent of sales to abandoned carts.²
>> A second GoDaddy
>>>> article suggests it is 67%.
>>
>> I haven¹t reviewed the transcript of that call, but I just pulled the 80%
>> number out of a hat and my intended point was that if there was just a
>> small difference between abandonment rates of initiated domain
>> registrations that did and did not generate claims notices then it might
>> be reasonable to conclude that the received warning was having its
>> intended targeted effect (deterring cybersquatting) and not causing
>> significant abandonment of non-infringing domain registrations.
>>
>> It appears that the GoDaddy cart abandonment statistics relate to general
>> ecommerce websites and not specifically to registrar websites so it would
>> be useful to get data from registrars as to what their general cart
>> abandonment rate is. But if it is 68% for initiated domain registrations
>> then the 94.7 abandonment rate measured by the Analysis group would be
>> 39.2% higher and that would seem statistically significant and indicative
>> that non-infringing registrations may be deterred. (Noting for the record
>> that we don't know how many of the abandoned registrations measured by AG
>> were never intended to go to completion but were initiated for other
>> purposes -- and that of the abandoned attempts that were intended to be
>> completed we have no way of knowing which were initiated by intentional
>> cybersquatters and which came from innocent parties with no infringing
>> intent and whose actual domain use would not have been infringing.)
>>
>> We also don't know the effect of a claims warning receipt on an
>> intentional cybersquatters versus innocent would-be registrants. Just as
>> warning signs of home security systems may not deter a professional
>> burglar, intentional cybersquatters may know the risk of detection and
>> factor it into their business model. On the other hand, outside the ICANN
>> bubble, most would be domain registrants are unlikely to have a law
>> degree and upon receiving a notice warning of potential legal
>> consequences if they complete the transaction may decide they don't wish
>> to expend half a month's grocery money to consult with a trademark
>> attorney.
>>
>> None of this is to say that the Claims Notice does not have merit or that
>> we should not consider possible generation of notices, or at least notice
>> to trademark holders of completed registrations, for some classes of
>> non-exact matches. But it's clear that we also need more and better data
>> because what we don't know probably exceeds what we do.
>>
>> We should also be mindful that we must maintain a reasonable balance
>> between the scope of this RPM and its impact on domain registrants with
>> no infringing intent, especially if their actual use of the domain would
>> be lawful. Let's take a pragmatic view and recognize that any
>> policymaking exercise is not an academic but an inherently political
>> process and that "politics is the art of compromise". Also, as contracted
>> parties in the business of creating and selling domains make up half the
>> GNSO Council that must approve our final work product (lest all our work
>> be for naught) that would suggest that our work should seek to assure
>> that Claims Notices perform their intended effect of effectively
>> deterring intended cybersquatting while minimizing the deterrence of
>> legitimate domain registrations.
>>
>> Best, Philip
>>
>> Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal
>> Virtualaw LLC
>> 1155 F Street, NW
>> Suite 1050
>> Washington, DC 20004
>> 202-559-8597/Direct
>> 202-559-8750/Fax
>> 202-255-6172/Cell
>>
>> Twitter: @VlawDC
>>
>> "Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of J. Scott Evans via
>> gnso-rpm-wg
>> Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 11:00 AM
>> To: Volker Greimann; gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] TMCH data on abandonment
>>
>> Volker:
>>
>> Thanks for this perspective. I know that my marketing team struggles with
>> what they call ³stickiness² of a registration process. Specifically, they
>> are always looking for ways to streamline the registration process
>> because the ³stickier² the process (the more steps need to complete
>> registration) leads to a high drop off rate. Your antidotal evidence
>> certainly aligns with the same type of situation my folks at Adobe find
>> difficult in selling our subscriptions.
>>
>>
>> J. Scott Evans
>> 408.536.5336 (tel)
>> 345 Park Avenue, Mail Stop W11-544
>> Director, Trademarks
>> 408.709.6162 (cell)
>> San Jose, CA, 95110, USA
>> Adobe. Make It an Experience.
>> jsevans at adobe.com
>> www.adobe.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/9/17, 7:52 AM, "gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of Volker
>> Greimann" <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of
>> vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>>
>> There can be a significant drop-off due the necessity to present this
>> notice seperate from the purchase process.
>>
>> Examples:
>>
>> 1) Potential Registrant pre-orders a domain: the notice cannot be
>> presented at the time of purchase
>>
>> 2) Potential Registrant orders the domain through a reseller with its
>> own front-end: the notice cannot be presented by the registrar in the
>> purchase process
>>
>> Result => Notice has to be presented after the order is received but
>> before it is executed in an alternate process, usually email. While
>> we
>> have not at the time measured the actual rate, we did note a
>> significant
>> drop-off between the numbers of registrants directed to visit a
>> website
>> where the notice could be presented and confirmed and the number of
>> mails sent. The drop-off between the number of customers visiting the
>> site, seeing the notice and then deciding not to pursue the
>> registration
>> was smaller.
>>
>> Conclusion: The current noticeconfirmation process that is supposed
>> to
>> be in the registration path does not work well in real life for many
>> industry sales channel.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>> Am 09.06.2017 um 16:28 schrieb J. Scott Evans via gnso-rpm-wg:
>>> Brain. Point taken. I don¹t mean to be flippant. That said, I am
>> growing increasing tired of there always being a negative inference from
>> behaviors from those that are overall hostile to RPMs in general. My
>> point is that as a proponent of RPMs and someone who worked diligently
>> for over 9 months to come up with these RPMs that the abandonment rate
>> does not automatically indicate that the system is not working as
>> intended.
>>>
>>>
>>> J. Scott Evans
>>> 408.536.5336 (tel)
>>> 345 Park Avenue, Mail Stop W11-544
>>> Director, Trademarks
>>> 408.709.6162 (cell)
>>> San Jose, CA, 95110, USA
>>> Adobe. Make It an Experience.
>>> jsevans at adobe.com
>>> www.adobe.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/9/17, 7:24 AM, "Brian F. Cimbolic" <BCimbolic at pir.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> J. Scott, respectfully, what evidence is there that the Claims
>> notice provided to registrants is not having a chilling effect for those
>> with no intention to infringe? I understand there is not direct evidence
>> on either side of the issue, but to say decisively that it is "Not so"
>> about the chilling effect without providing some evidence seems
>> unnecessarily flippant.
>>>
>>> Brian Cimbolic
>>> Deputy General Counsel, Public Interest Registry
>>> Office: +1 703 889-5752| Mobile: + 1 571 385-7871|
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> Confidentiality Note: Proprietary and confidential to Public
>> Interest Registry. If received in error, please inform sender and then
>> delete.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of J. Scott Evans via
>> gnso-rpm-wg
>>> Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 10:19 AM
>>> To: Rebecca Tushnet <Rebecca.Tushnet at law.georgetown.edu>;
>> Beckham, Brian <brian.beckham at wipo.int>
>>> Cc: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] TMCH data on abandonment
>>> Importance: High
>>>
>>> I will remind the group that Abandonment is the point. The TM
>> Claims notice is designed to inform would-be innocent infringers that
>> there is an issue. A high abandonment rate show that the system is
>> working. I realize those hostile to the TM Claims feel that a high
>> abandonment rate is proof that the Claims notice is overreaching. Not so.
>>>
>>> J. Scott
>>>
>>>
>>> J. Scott Evans
>>> 408.536.5336 (tel)
>>> 345 Park Avenue, Mail Stop W11-544
>>> Director, Trademarks
>>> 408.709.6162 (cell)
>>> San Jose, CA, 95110, USA
>>> Adobe. Make It an Experience.
>>> jsevans at adobe.com
>>> www.adobe.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/9/17, 7:16 AM, "gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf
>> of Rebecca Tushnet" <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of
>> Rebecca.Tushnet at law.georgetown.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree with Paul K. Unfortunately, we need better
>> information than
>>> that--we need to know about, of attempts that reached the
>> stage at
>>> which a notice would be provided, how many were abandoned.
>> It's my
>>> understanding--though I'd be happy to learn more--that the
>> notice
>>> wouldn't come when the shopping cart was filled but at
>> checkout.
>>>
>>> If we just don't have the data, then it may be that our
>> only
>>> recommendation must be to get the data.
>>> Rebecca Tushnet
>>> Georgetown Law
>>> 703 593 6759
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 4:56 AM, Beckham, Brian
>> <brian.beckham at wipo.int> wrote:
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I¹m not sure what is the right venue (i.e., in the
>> sub-group, of which I am
>>>> not a member, or to the full WG) to offer this, and it
>> is offered merely to
>>>> help fill out some of the questions/discussion around
>> seeking various
>>>> TMCH/Claims-related data.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the transcript for the Sub Team for Trademark Claims
>> call on Friday, 02
>>>> June 2017 at 16:00 UTC, there was some discussion on
>> abandonment rates. In
>>>> summary: Rebeca Tushnet suggested it would be helpful
>> to compare
>>>> non-TMCH-related abandonment vs ³regular² abandonment.
>> Jeff Neuman recalled
>>>> that during the BIZ launch there was a high abandonment.
>> Phil Corwin
>>>> suggested that if the non-TMCH-related abandonment rate
>> was 80% then it may
>>>> be reasonable to conclude that there¹s not a material
>> difference between
>>>> those subject to claims notices.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mindful that it may be difficult or even impossible to
>> obtain the desired
>>>> data (a number of reasons, including competitive
>> (dis-)advantages, were
>>>> raised on the call), a recent GoDaddy post informs us
>> that ³An average
>>>> website loses 69 percent of sales to abandoned carts.²
>> A second GoDaddy
>>>> article suggests it is 67%.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> See
>>>>
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.godad
>> dy.com%2Fgarage%2Fsmallbusiness%2Fmarket%2Feffective-strategies-to-boost-a
>> bandoned-cart-email-conversion-rates%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5323a61f9cb343c0
>> 017d08d4af42231a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636326145971
>> 754867&sdata=PtxSnnbDMNsumNMyaHdzoZZY0jowSqg1LeeFXqplKq4%3D&reserved=0
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.godad
>> dy.com%2Fgarage%2Findustry%2Fretail%2Fecommerce%2Fwant-to-to-increase-sale
>> s-reduce-shopping-cart-abandonment%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5323a61f9cb343c001
>> 7d08d4af42231a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C63632614597175
>> 4867&sdata=aOJ1E7T6ITmYfP4bMNsvQ7dJAj3QrswMl4YK42BQp6c%3D&reserved=0.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are many articles on this topic with varying
>> figures, but they tended
>>>> to generally note abandonment rates upwards of 60%.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The takeaway is that the TMCH-Claims rates observed here
>> in the WG, while
>>>> different/higher, are arguably not materially different
>> than e-commerce
>>>> statistics generally (certainly not the 20% noted by
>> Phil Corwin as
>>>> signaling ³a significant difference in the completion of
>> registration.²).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is important here to recall too that many members of
>> the WG have noted
>>>> that (for a number of reasons) registries, registrars,
>> and registrants may
>>>> have been sending queries in large numbers, thus skewing
>> the data upwards.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian Beckham | Head, Internet Dispute Resolution
>> Section | WIPO Arbitration
>>>> and Mediation Center
>>>> 34 chemin des Colombettes, 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland |
>> T +4122 338 8247 |
>>>> E brian.beckham at wipo.int |
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>> --
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>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
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