[gnso-rpm-wg] FW: TMCH data on abandonment
Marie Pattullo
marie.pattullo at aim.be
Mon Jun 12 12:44:42 UTC 2017
+ 1. I thought that discussion was closed.
Marie
Sent from my iPhone, sorry for typos
> On 12 Jun 2017, at 14:43, J. Scott Evans via gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org> wrote:
>
> I do not nor will I ever support disclosure of the marks registered in the TMCH.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jun 12, 2017, at 5:03 AM, Paul Keating <Paul at law.es> wrote:
>>
>> "what we don't know probably exceeds what we do²
>>
>> Could NOT agree more.
>>
>> I suggest we focus on what information we need in order to properly
>> analyze and discuss the issue. For this I see us in need of the following:
>>
>> A listing of the marks in the TMCH
>> Information from registrars that may indicate abandonment in the context
>> of the claims notice process. I cannot seriously believe that the
>> registrars do not have this data given its importance in the continued
>> process of refining the UI and maximizing revenues. If it is an issue of
>> confidentiality, I am happy to limit the disclosure of the information to
>> Staff or if that is not acceptable then to a third party who can be
>> retained (and paid) to review and analyze the data for us. Failing that
>> we could perhaps approach several of the larger registrars in this area
>> (new Gtld registrations) and ask that they run a test for a specified
>> period. IF that results in a delay we can defer this issue until we have
>> the data.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On 6/9/17, 6:22 PM, "Phil Corwin" <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf
>> of psc at vlaw-dc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This thread has wound on quite a bit since Brian's original post, but
>>> since my name came up in his let me add a few thoughts.
>>>
>>> Brian's email stated:
>>>> In the transcript for the Sub Team for Trademark Claims call on
>>> Friday, 02
>>>>> June 2017 at 16:00 UTC, there was some discussion on
>>> abandonment rates...
>>>> Phil Corwin suggested that if the non-TMCH-related abandonment
>>> rate was 80% then it may
>>>>> be reasonable to conclude that there¹s not a material
>>> difference between
>>>>> those subject to claims notices.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mindful that it may be difficult or even impossible to
>>> obtain the desired
>>>>> data (a number of reasons, including competitive
>>> (dis-)advantages, were
>>>>> raised on the call), a recent GoDaddy post informs us
>>> that ³An average
>>>>> website loses 69 percent of sales to abandoned carts.²
>>> A second GoDaddy
>>>>> article suggests it is 67%.
>>>
>>> I haven¹t reviewed the transcript of that call, but I just pulled the 80%
>>> number out of a hat and my intended point was that if there was just a
>>> small difference between abandonment rates of initiated domain
>>> registrations that did and did not generate claims notices then it might
>>> be reasonable to conclude that the received warning was having its
>>> intended targeted effect (deterring cybersquatting) and not causing
>>> significant abandonment of non-infringing domain registrations.
>>>
>>> It appears that the GoDaddy cart abandonment statistics relate to general
>>> ecommerce websites and not specifically to registrar websites so it would
>>> be useful to get data from registrars as to what their general cart
>>> abandonment rate is. But if it is 68% for initiated domain registrations
>>> then the 94.7 abandonment rate measured by the Analysis group would be
>>> 39.2% higher and that would seem statistically significant and indicative
>>> that non-infringing registrations may be deterred. (Noting for the record
>>> that we don't know how many of the abandoned registrations measured by AG
>>> were never intended to go to completion but were initiated for other
>>> purposes -- and that of the abandoned attempts that were intended to be
>>> completed we have no way of knowing which were initiated by intentional
>>> cybersquatters and which came from innocent parties with no infringing
>>> intent and whose actual domain use would not have been infringing.)
>>>
>>> We also don't know the effect of a claims warning receipt on an
>>> intentional cybersquatters versus innocent would-be registrants. Just as
>>> warning signs of home security systems may not deter a professional
>>> burglar, intentional cybersquatters may know the risk of detection and
>>> factor it into their business model. On the other hand, outside the ICANN
>>> bubble, most would be domain registrants are unlikely to have a law
>>> degree and upon receiving a notice warning of potential legal
>>> consequences if they complete the transaction may decide they don't wish
>>> to expend half a month's grocery money to consult with a trademark
>>> attorney.
>>>
>>> None of this is to say that the Claims Notice does not have merit or that
>>> we should not consider possible generation of notices, or at least notice
>>> to trademark holders of completed registrations, for some classes of
>>> non-exact matches. But it's clear that we also need more and better data
>>> because what we don't know probably exceeds what we do.
>>>
>>> We should also be mindful that we must maintain a reasonable balance
>>> between the scope of this RPM and its impact on domain registrants with
>>> no infringing intent, especially if their actual use of the domain would
>>> be lawful. Let's take a pragmatic view and recognize that any
>>> policymaking exercise is not an academic but an inherently political
>>> process and that "politics is the art of compromise". Also, as contracted
>>> parties in the business of creating and selling domains make up half the
>>> GNSO Council that must approve our final work product (lest all our work
>>> be for naught) that would suggest that our work should seek to assure
>>> that Claims Notices perform their intended effect of effectively
>>> deterring intended cybersquatting while minimizing the deterrence of
>>> legitimate domain registrations.
>>>
>>> Best, Philip
>>>
>>> Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal
>>> Virtualaw LLC
>>> 1155 F Street, NW
>>> Suite 1050
>>> Washington, DC 20004
>>> 202-559-8597/Direct
>>> 202-559-8750/Fax
>>> 202-255-6172/Cell
>>>
>>> Twitter: @VlawDC
>>>
>>> "Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of J. Scott Evans via
>>> gnso-rpm-wg
>>> Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 11:00 AM
>>> To: Volker Greimann; gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] TMCH data on abandonment
>>>
>>> Volker:
>>>
>>> Thanks for this perspective. I know that my marketing team struggles with
>>> what they call ³stickiness² of a registration process. Specifically, they
>>> are always looking for ways to streamline the registration process
>>> because the ³stickier² the process (the more steps need to complete
>>> registration) leads to a high drop off rate. Your antidotal evidence
>>> certainly aligns with the same type of situation my folks at Adobe find
>>> difficult in selling our subscriptions.
>>>
>>>
>>> J. Scott Evans
>>> 408.536.5336 (tel)
>>> 345 Park Avenue, Mail Stop W11-544
>>> Director, Trademarks
>>> 408.709.6162 (cell)
>>> San Jose, CA, 95110, USA
>>> Adobe. Make It an Experience.
>>> jsevans at adobe.com
>>> www.adobe.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/9/17, 7:52 AM, "gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of Volker
>>> Greimann" <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of
>>> vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> There can be a significant drop-off due the necessity to present this
>>> notice seperate from the purchase process.
>>>
>>> Examples:
>>>
>>> 1) Potential Registrant pre-orders a domain: the notice cannot be
>>> presented at the time of purchase
>>>
>>> 2) Potential Registrant orders the domain through a reseller with its
>>> own front-end: the notice cannot be presented by the registrar in the
>>> purchase process
>>>
>>> Result => Notice has to be presented after the order is received but
>>> before it is executed in an alternate process, usually email. While
>>> we
>>> have not at the time measured the actual rate, we did note a
>>> significant
>>> drop-off between the numbers of registrants directed to visit a
>>> website
>>> where the notice could be presented and confirmed and the number of
>>> mails sent. The drop-off between the number of customers visiting the
>>> site, seeing the notice and then deciding not to pursue the
>>> registration
>>> was smaller.
>>>
>>> Conclusion: The current noticeconfirmation process that is supposed
>>> to
>>> be in the registration path does not work well in real life for many
>>> industry sales channel.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>
>>>> Am 09.06.2017 um 16:28 schrieb J. Scott Evans via gnso-rpm-wg:
>>>> Brain. Point taken. I don¹t mean to be flippant. That said, I am
>>> growing increasing tired of there always being a negative inference from
>>> behaviors from those that are overall hostile to RPMs in general. My
>>> point is that as a proponent of RPMs and someone who worked diligently
>>> for over 9 months to come up with these RPMs that the abandonment rate
>>> does not automatically indicate that the system is not working as
>>> intended.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> J. Scott Evans
>>>> 408.536.5336 (tel)
>>>> 345 Park Avenue, Mail Stop W11-544
>>>> Director, Trademarks
>>>> 408.709.6162 (cell)
>>>> San Jose, CA, 95110, USA
>>>> Adobe. Make It an Experience.
>>>> jsevans at adobe.com
>>>> www.adobe.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/9/17, 7:24 AM, "Brian F. Cimbolic" <BCimbolic at pir.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> J. Scott, respectfully, what evidence is there that the Claims
>>> notice provided to registrants is not having a chilling effect for those
>>> with no intention to infringe? I understand there is not direct evidence
>>> on either side of the issue, but to say decisively that it is "Not so"
>>> about the chilling effect without providing some evidence seems
>>> unnecessarily flippant.
>>>>
>>>> Brian Cimbolic
>>>> Deputy General Counsel, Public Interest Registry
>>>> Office: +1 703 889-5752| Mobile: + 1 571 385-7871|
>>>>
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.pir.org&data=02%7C0
>>> 1%7C%7C01683e8ee1db418bc47108d4af4346a4%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1
>>> %7C0%7C0%7C636326150869181271&sdata=h8qAN8le9SbhQvR0IawnyuRDu%2Fb1%2Bv2fpf
>>> bG6MNipug%3D&reserved=0 | Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | YouTube
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Confidentiality Note: Proprietary and confidential to Public
>>> Interest Registry. If received in error, please inform sender and then
>>> delete.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of J. Scott Evans via
>>> gnso-rpm-wg
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 10:19 AM
>>>> To: Rebecca Tushnet <Rebecca.Tushnet at law.georgetown.edu>;
>>> Beckham, Brian <brian.beckham at wipo.int>
>>>> Cc: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] TMCH data on abandonment
>>>> Importance: High
>>>>
>>>> I will remind the group that Abandonment is the point. The TM
>>> Claims notice is designed to inform would-be innocent infringers that
>>> there is an issue. A high abandonment rate show that the system is
>>> working. I realize those hostile to the TM Claims feel that a high
>>> abandonment rate is proof that the Claims notice is overreaching. Not so.
>>>>
>>>> J. Scott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> J. Scott Evans
>>>> 408.536.5336 (tel)
>>>> 345 Park Avenue, Mail Stop W11-544
>>>> Director, Trademarks
>>>> 408.709.6162 (cell)
>>>> San Jose, CA, 95110, USA
>>>> Adobe. Make It an Experience.
>>>> jsevans at adobe.com
>>>> www.adobe.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/9/17, 7:16 AM, "gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf
>>> of Rebecca Tushnet" <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of
>>> Rebecca.Tushnet at law.georgetown.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Paul K. Unfortunately, we need better
>>> information than
>>>> that--we need to know about, of attempts that reached the
>>> stage at
>>>> which a notice would be provided, how many were abandoned.
>>> It's my
>>>> understanding--though I'd be happy to learn more--that the
>>> notice
>>>> wouldn't come when the shopping cart was filled but at
>>> checkout.
>>>>
>>>> If we just don't have the data, then it may be that our
>>> only
>>>> recommendation must be to get the data.
>>>> Rebecca Tushnet
>>>> Georgetown Law
>>>> 703 593 6759
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 4:56 AM, Beckham, Brian
>>> <brian.beckham at wipo.int> wrote:
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I¹m not sure what is the right venue (i.e., in the
>>> sub-group, of which I am
>>>>> not a member, or to the full WG) to offer this, and it
>>> is offered merely to
>>>>> help fill out some of the questions/discussion around
>>> seeking various
>>>>> TMCH/Claims-related data.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In the transcript for the Sub Team for Trademark Claims
>>> call on Friday, 02
>>>>> June 2017 at 16:00 UTC, there was some discussion on
>>> abandonment rates. In
>>>>> summary: Rebeca Tushnet suggested it would be helpful
>>> to compare
>>>>> non-TMCH-related abandonment vs ³regular² abandonment.
>>> Jeff Neuman recalled
>>>>> that during the BIZ launch there was a high abandonment.
>>> Phil Corwin
>>>>> suggested that if the non-TMCH-related abandonment rate
>>> was 80% then it may
>>>>> be reasonable to conclude that there¹s not a material
>>> difference between
>>>>> those subject to claims notices.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mindful that it may be difficult or even impossible to
>>> obtain the desired
>>>>> data (a number of reasons, including competitive
>>> (dis-)advantages, were
>>>>> raised on the call), a recent GoDaddy post informs us
>>> that ³An average
>>>>> website loses 69 percent of sales to abandoned carts.²
>>> A second GoDaddy
>>>>> article suggests it is 67%.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> See
>>>>>
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.godad
>>> dy.com%2Fgarage%2Fsmallbusiness%2Fmarket%2Feffective-strategies-to-boost-a
>>> bandoned-cart-email-conversion-rates%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5323a61f9cb343c0
>>> 017d08d4af42231a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636326145971
>>> 754867&sdata=PtxSnnbDMNsumNMyaHdzoZZY0jowSqg1LeeFXqplKq4%3D&reserved=0
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.godad
>>> dy.com%2Fgarage%2Findustry%2Fretail%2Fecommerce%2Fwant-to-to-increase-sale
>>> s-reduce-shopping-cart-abandonment%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5323a61f9cb343c001
>>> 7d08d4af42231a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C63632614597175
>>> 4867&sdata=aOJ1E7T6ITmYfP4bMNsvQ7dJAj3QrswMl4YK42BQp6c%3D&reserved=0.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are many articles on this topic with varying
>>> figures, but they tended
>>>>> to generally note abandonment rates upwards of 60%.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The takeaway is that the TMCH-Claims rates observed here
>>> in the WG, while
>>>>> different/higher, are arguably not materially different
>>> than e-commerce
>>>>> statistics generally (certainly not the 20% noted by
>>> Phil Corwin as
>>>>> signaling ³a significant difference in the completion of
>>> registration.²).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is important here to recall too that many members of
>>> the WG have noted
>>>>> that (for a number of reasons) registries, registrars,
>>> and registrants may
>>>>> have been sending queries in large numbers, thus skewing
>>> the data upwards.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian Beckham | Head, Internet Dispute Resolution
>>> Section | WIPO Arbitration
>>>>> and Mediation Center
>>>>> 34 chemin des Colombettes, 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland |
>>> T +4122 338 8247 |
>>>>> E brian.beckham at wipo.int |
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.wipo.int&data=02%7C
>>> 01%7C%7C5323a61f9cb343c0017d08d4af42231a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee
>>> 1%7C0%7C0%7C636326145971754867&sdata=lenvIEKAPus7F2zCjYUJaxaYKhFe8%2B8rBpf
>>> ZriFt75Y%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> --
>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>
>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
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>>>
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