[ioepanel] Strategy Panel on ICANN's Role in Internet Governance Ecosystem

Tue Nov 19 04:59:15 UTC 2013

Thanks Alex,  very wise and astute observations indeed.

I think we're actually saying the same thing, albeit in a different way  in
so far as each party self-selects and self-describes its own principles (as
the earlier examples illustrate), not that they are tightly coupled around
only one set of principles or one definition or worldview.   As you say,
that's a feature not a bug.

Best of luck with the rest of the meetings in BA. Sorry I couldn't be there
to help.

Cheers,

p.

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Alejandro Pisanty <apisanty at gmail.com>wrote:

> Pindar, all,
>
> I think that the question of "a set of principles for Internet Governance"
> needs a bit more discussion in depth before we decide whether, and if so
> how, we address it.
>
> My view:
>
> There have been over the last couple of years many groups trying to
> establish sets of principles (and rights) related to Internet Governance.
> Hartmut and Debbie have given us two just today. In the IGF contex there
> are maybe two dozen proposals from different origins. You win if you bet
> that they are different. They don't only differ in how they slice the pie
> but also in how the pie is made.
>
> That means that not all give the same weight to, say freedom of
> expression. Some start with the right to life. Others are more concentrated
> on Internetsy stuff.
>
> One approach I like particularly is the one by Frank LaRue, the UN Special
> Rapporteur for Freedom of Expression, an eminently reasonable guy. He says
> simply (and was picked up as a resolution in the UN Human Rights area): let
> the same rights be true online as are offline. Don't do anything online
> that curtails a right that exists offline. And, if you are going to limit a
> right (say freedom of speech is limited by slander, national security and
> public peace; or say you need to violate privacy for surveillance) let the
> same rules apply: the limitation of a right has to occur exceptionally, for
> a very limited and well defined purpose, and explicitly by law or judicial
> order.
>
> I know this is now "rights" and not "principles" but these stark examples
> illustrate what happens with either rights or principles: there are many
> views and ways to express them, and they don't really converge.
>
> In fact, in the IGF environment there are not one but several efforts to
> compile the sets of principles, to collate them, and to see whether there
> are any commonalities.
>
> Coming back to ICANN very specifically, you PIndar (and Vint and I for
> sure!) may remember the time and discussions it took us to hammer together
> the Core Values embodied in ICANN's bylaws. And they still have a lot of
> leeway: "free markets where appropriate"...
>
> So I'm not keen in trying to produce a complete set of principles or
> anything like it. Maybe a set of minimal principles and still we'll see
> trouble among us.
>
> I'll take this one step further: this evening in Buenos Aires Fadi
> addressed LACRALO (Latin America and Caribbean At-Large (Internet users)
> Organization, a body of ICANN. He said one objective of our and especially
> the "big" panel chaired by President Ilves of Estonia is to define
> multistakeholder in one clear, single definition, because there are too
> many and that causes trouble.
>
> My only comment on that (which I will convey to him in the morning) is
> that having multiple definitions of multistakeholderism instead of a single
> one is not a but, it's a feature.
>
> Yours,
>
> Alejandro Pisanty
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 9:31 PM, pindar wong <pindar.wong at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Yup... understood. That's a very vaild point that principles stand or
>> fall over details how their are stewarded.
>>
>> I guess my point is that we have to start from 1st principles -- such as
>> a statement of principles, against which all else may be both
>> self-referenced and externally referenced.
>>
>> Clearly hypocrisy can take many forms, but if there is a modicum of
>> transparency and openness, then the difference between practice and theory
>> will be publicly evident -- and therein lies a world of difference.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> p.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch <
>> apisan at unam.mx> wrote:
>>
>>>  Pindar,
>>>
>>>  this is one more of this things that sound good till tested, gamed,
>>> and obliterated. Like privacy statements on websites, or the small letters
>>> in software licenses.
>>>
>>>  Do note also the ITU's definition of its being multistakeholder (as
>>> one example.)
>>>
>>>  Compliance mechanisms, auditing, opportunities for decision appeal,
>>> reversal and redress... now that's another level but also another level of
>>> cost. Witness ATRT (1, 2, and who knows what's next.)
>>>
>>>  Yours,
>>>
>>>  Alejandro Pisanty
>>>
>>>
>>>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
>>> Facultad de Química UNAM
>>> Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
>>>
>>> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475
>>> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
>>> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
>>> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
>>> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>>   ------------------------------
>>> *Desde:* ecosystem-panel-bounces at icann.org [
>>> ecosystem-panel-bounces at icann.org] en nombre de pindar wong [
>>> pindar.wong at gmail.com]
>>> *Enviado el:* lunes, 18 de noviembre de 2013 17:32
>>> *Hasta:* ioepanel at icann.org
>>> *CC:* ecosystem-panel at icann.org
>>> *Asunto:* Re: Strategy Panel on ICANN's Role in Internet Governance
>>> Ecosystem [ioepanel]
>>>
>>>   Greetings,
>>>
>>> Perhaps a 'Public Statement of Principles' is itself a  principle that
>>> should be considered for institutions that claim to have public interest
>>> objectives in the Internet Governance Ecosystem.
>>>
>>>  p.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 4:53 AM, Carlton Samuels <
>>> carlton.samuels at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Thanks for sharing Debbie. Much obliged.
>>>> I note that NZ has institutional objectives anchored in principles.
>>>>  Nice.
>>>>
>>>>  -Carlton
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==============================
>>>> Carlton A Samuels
>>>> Mobile: 876-818-1799
>>>> *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
>>>> =============================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Debbie Monahan <dnc at dnc.org.nz>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  The InternetNZ Group has also documented its principles.  There is
>>>>> one document of Policy Principles and another of Top Level Domains
>>>>> Principles.
>>>>>
>>>>>  https://internetnz.net.nz/principles
>>>>>
>>>>>  Cheers
>>>>> Debbie
>>>>>
>>>>>  On 19/11/2013, at 6:51 AM, Hartmut Richard Glaser <glaser at cgi.br>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Brazilian Principles for the Governance and use of the Internet
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.cgi.br/regulamentacao/pdf/resolucao-2009-003-pt-en-es.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>> ioepanel mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Debbie Monahan
>>>>> Domain Name Commissioner
>>>>> +64 21 891 620
>>>>> www.dnc.org.nz
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> Facultad de Química UNAM
> Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475
> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>
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