[Neobrahmigp] [Ext] Malayalam LGR v1.4

Thu Aug 9 18:33:57 UTC 2018

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On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 9:15 PM, veena solomon <veena.ycet at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Anivar,
>
> Thank you for the feedback and clarification on the issue. But I would
> like to point out a few things. This document was at first compiled in
> Google Docs and Nirmala font was used by default for Malayalam.
>

Good to Know . But Nirmala is unlikely, since Google Fonts does not have
Nirmala in it.

> As it requires to be sent in doc format for IP review, it was downloaded
> and sent. The receiver need not have Nirmala in their machine and Karthika
> was used to display. I don't think Karthika is the most unpopular font in
> Malayalam. It ships with MS Windows and hence present in most computers
> running Windows among the default Malayalam fonts.Buggy and least
> favored by in typography, of course.
>

Unpopular mean same . Not used in Typography . Using that proposal is an
issue because NTA usecases in this font will be buggy
https://thottingal.in/documents/Malayalam-NTA.pdf . I think we need to
correct this . I will comment on the proposal with images.

> On the other hand, the traditional Malayalam fonts have a limited reach,
> other than being used by Newspapers and in print media.
>

I think it is not a studied opinion. As I pointed before, there is no
strong devision between traditional / reformed scripts, since the character
set in usage is 500-650 glyphs ( not >200 reformed nor all 1000+ full
traditional glyphset). Only thing prevented the adoption of traditional
scripts earlier was the technology limitation of ASCII fonts capacity. With
unicode, as a foundry with 10+ fonts we can clearly point the increase of
traditional script in adoption on computers & Web. It is even part of
IT at school distribution used widely in schools in state.  In addition Kids
magazines to News papers to Govt Orders & publications(sample
<http://welfare.sayahna.org/downloads/welfare.pdf>) coming out n print as
well.

> Hence, I believe we will not find them on everyone's computer. Hence it is
> not feasible to use them in the proposal.
>

All Linux Distributions  - Ubuntu, Redhat, Fedora, Arch IT at school kerala
etc - Meera is the default font. It contains both orthography fonts
Windows - Karthika/Nirmala . You can install fonts (and such downloads are
common)
Ios  - Sangam (you can install extra fonts)
Android - NotoSans Malayalam
Adobe Typekit hosts Traditional Orthography fonts due to popular demand.

> So, if we want to use traditional fonts, we will have to take screenshots
> quite a lot.
>

on 'NTA'  case screeshots are needed sadly, because there is a difference
between lingustically correct usage and Microaoft implimentation.

while we discuss stacked forms such as LLA  or TTA , or samvruthokaram, it
is better to use screenshots from both reformed and traditional as unicode
does. Since representation forms are different.

Noto sans Malayalam is not displaying properly in MS Word when I tried.
>

> Again, the purpose of the proposal is to make it possible to create TLDs
> in Malayalam script without much security issues like spoofing. In my
> honest opinion, Smvruthokaram itself is quite outdated in modern usage.
>

I suggest use the term "reformed" instead of "modern".  Samvruthokaram I
mentioned since the display form of it in the document is wrong.

> I completely understand SMC's enthusiasm in preserving traditions and
> historical usage of Malayalam language and script. But this project is more
> towards the technical side.
>

SMC believes orthography is a user choice and not govenment choice. We
maintain both orthography fonts and support the usage of both by builing
wroing sytems and rendering engines. And all of these is technical ensuring
civicTech space, since language belongs to people. On Samvruthokaram, I
hope you have read the footnote 111 in same proposal
https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2005/05213-samvruktokaram.pdf

> Correct me if I am wrong, but language/script evolves with time and not
> allowing it to run a natural course is not very desirable for progress.
>

In a standard development exercise we are nobody to decide "natural course"
. The standard we develop here must support all existing usage forms. We
are nobody to decide on  supporting / retiring a language feature in use.
Hope we are clear on this

> I really appreciate your feedback.
>
> Anyway, I welcome you to make changes or make comments on the Google Doc
> here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mHdEC77fGpsgj51LufoW3fZWWoE6D
> 6VKeNO_HqLhYWk/edit?usp=sharing
>
>
Sure. I will work on it. On a quick read, this need few corrections.

> Regards,
>
>
>
> *Veena Solomon*
>
> [image: Twitter icon] <http://www.twitter.com/vinazol> [image: Pinterest
> icon] <http://www.pinterest.com/vinazol> [image: Facebook icon]
> <http://www.facebook.com/vinazol> [image: Quora icon]
> <http://www.quora.com/Veena-Solomon> [image: Foursquare icon]
> <http://foursquare.com/user/7402337> [image: Google-plus icon]
> <https://plus.google.com/u/0/105213014676403488949/>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 5:54 PM, Anivar Aravind <anivar at indicproject.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Veena
>>
>>
>> At first, the need to use Traditional Orthography fonts is essential for
>> proposal, since it discusses display forms such as samvruthokaram, which
>> does not exist in Modern Orthography. Displaying those well need fonts
>> supporting traditional orthography  .  Microsoft Karthika is the most
>> unpopular font in malayalam (and buggy). If you want to use New Orthography
>> fonts, please use Noto Sans Malayalam by by Google in New Orthography
>> referring areas.
>>
>> In addition , please note
>>
>> 1. Malayalam Does not have a clear division Modern and traditional
>> Orthography. Every Print publication uses at least 500-650 conjuncts
>> character set
>> 2. Most popular Unicode fonts on the web are traditional Orthography
>> fonts. (Noto by Google in Android is the only exception, since Android does
>> not provide a font installation option)
>>
>> This paper is a worthy read.  https://thottingal.in/document
>> s/Malayalam%20Orthographic%20Reforms_%20Impact%20on%
>> 20Language%20and%20Popular%20Culture.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Anivar Aravind
>> Executive Director, Indic Project
>> Swathanthra Malayalam Computing(SMC)
>> https://smc.org.in
>>
>> personal https://anivar.net
>> https://twitter.com/anivar
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 4:59 PM, veena solomon <veena.ycet at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Anivar. But I have a question, why use traditional orthography
>>> font? I think modern orthography fonts are more popular on the web and used
>>> in most applications.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Veena Solomon*
>>>
>>> [image: Twitter icon] <http://www.twitter.com/vinazol> [image:
>>> Pinterest icon] <http://www.pinterest.com/vinazol> [image: Facebook
>>> icon] <http://www.facebook.com/vinazol> [image: Quora icon]
>>> <http://www.quora.com/Veena-Solomon> [image: Foursquare icon]
>>> <http://foursquare.com/user/7402337> [image: Google-plus icon]
>>> <https://plus.google.com/u/0/105213014676403488949/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Anivar Aravind <anivar at indicproject.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Attached same
>>>>
>>>> Anivar Aravind
>>>> Executive Director, Indic Project
>>>> Swathanthra Malayalam Computing(SMC)
>>>> https://smc.org.in
>>>>
>>>> personal https://anivar.net
>>>> https://twitter.com/anivar
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Anivar Aravind <anivar at indicproject.org
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It will be good if we can generate proposals using a popularly used
>>>>> Traditional Orthography font, Microsoft Karthika New orthography fonts.
>>>>> Samvruthokaram looks odd in current fonts. I will  generate a PDF and send
>>>>> you in few minutes
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anivar
>>>>>
>>>>> Anivar Aravind
>>>>> Executive Director, Indic Project
>>>>> Swathanthra Malayalam Computing(SMC)
>>>>> https://smc.org.in
>>>>>
>>>>> personal https://anivar.net
>>>>> https://twitter.com/anivar
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 7:53 PM, Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <
>>>>> pitinan.koo at icann.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you Veena for the edited file.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As it is the format change, I replace the file and keep the same
>>>>>> version number.
>>>>>> Please find again the Malayalam LGR v1.4 dated 2018-08-07.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> List of attachments:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Malayalam LGR v 1.4 date 2018-08-07 in Word format
>>>>>> (Malayalam_LGR_20180807.docx)
>>>>>> 2. Malayalam LGR v 1.4 date 2018-08-07 in PDF
>>>>>> format (Malayalam_LGR_20180807.pdf)
>>>>>> 3. XML (Proposal-LGR-Malayalam-20180807.xml)
>>>>>> 4. HML (Proposal-Lgr-Malayalam-20180807.htm)
>>>>>> 5. Test Labels (malayalam-test-labels-20180807.txt)
>>>>>> 6. Test Result (malayalam-test-labels-20180807-result.txt)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kindly review and finalization. Please let us know your feedback if
>>>>>> this could be sent across to the IP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Pitinan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2018, at 22:22, veena solomon <veena.ycet at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you Pitinan. I have made only some formatting changes -
>>>>>> alignment and font size.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Veena Solomon*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image: Twitter icon] [twitter.com]
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.twitter.com_vinazol&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=qAs-z5lsx1qg4ORlIggZJ8rKxoygReIR_xCeVaO37qo&m=5nEQYCzMxsjutzzR6c86aWDZ4c6xnmcV6vOSSOUnDcI&s=5zqVO3VVM-dgJnaPftg5k8X82GlL6QiBfu1lGS_RJak&e=>
>>>>>>  [image: Pinterest icon] [pinterest.com]
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.pinterest.com_vinazol&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=qAs-z5lsx1qg4ORlIggZJ8rKxoygReIR_xCeVaO37qo&m=5nEQYCzMxsjutzzR6c86aWDZ4c6xnmcV6vOSSOUnDcI&s=PmHCOThed6uJpt-p5rw34i_uhviL3GKB5uAbGMlAVRs&e=>
>>>>>>  [image: Facebook icon] [facebook.com]
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.facebook.com_vinazol&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=qAs-z5lsx1qg4ORlIggZJ8rKxoygReIR_xCeVaO37qo&m=5nEQYCzMxsjutzzR6c86aWDZ4c6xnmcV6vOSSOUnDcI&s=XIVTDxXA3l_vN6LcXLpzFTU23rViB-LH6l_nTg1D9-I&e=>
>>>>>>  [image: Quora icon] [quora.com]
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.quora.com_Veena-2DSolomon&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=qAs-z5lsx1qg4ORlIggZJ8rKxoygReIR_xCeVaO37qo&m=5nEQYCzMxsjutzzR6c86aWDZ4c6xnmcV6vOSSOUnDcI&s=ZBdewzYCKfagU8bJivZTN1zAADfNWGy31sxKpO5-P5g&e=>
>>>>>>  [image: Foursquare icon] [foursquare.com]
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__foursquare.com_user_7402337&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=qAs-z5lsx1qg4ORlIggZJ8rKxoygReIR_xCeVaO37qo&m=5nEQYCzMxsjutzzR6c86aWDZ4c6xnmcV6vOSSOUnDcI&s=zgYX3-M_2zdTYsrL_qE6CTzSRB9wUfdTtIFewsoJcn4&e=>
>>>>>>  [image: Google-plus icon] [plus.google.com]
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__plus.google.com_u_0_105213014676403488949_&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=qAs-z5lsx1qg4ORlIggZJ8rKxoygReIR_xCeVaO37qo&m=5nEQYCzMxsjutzzR6c86aWDZ4c6xnmcV6vOSSOUnDcI&s=mxPgcfYmBd2EWQVHnuw9HvfFG6rD_VG7ofCS_NALMC4&e=>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 6:38 PM, veena solomon <veena.ycet at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you Pitinan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018, 5:38 PM Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <
>>>>>>> pitinan.koo at icann.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Veena, and all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kindly find attached the Malayalam LGR version 1.4 as attached.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This version has taken the Myanmar cross-script variant out.
>>>>>>>> And the two Oriya-Malayalam cross-script variant sets was moved  to
>>>>>>>> the Appendix.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> List of attachment:
>>>>>>>> 1. Malayalam LGR v 1.4 date 2018-08-07 (Malayalam_LGR_20180807.docx)
>>>>>>>> 2. XML (Proposal-LGR-Malayalam-20180807.xml)
>>>>>>>> 3. HML (Proposal-Lgr-Malayalam-20180807.htm)
>>>>>>>> 4. Test Labels (malayalam-test-labels-20180807.txt)
>>>>>>>> 5. Test Result (malayalam-test-labels-20180807-result.txt)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kindly review and finalization. Please let us know your feedback if
>>>>>>>> this could be sent across to the IP.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Pitinan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Neobrahmigp mailing list
>>>>>>>> Neobrahmigp at icann.org
>>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/neobrahmigp
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Malayalam_LGR_20180807_VS.docx>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Neobrahmigp mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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