[Ws2-jurisdiction] RES: Question Presented (Greg Shatan)
Paul Rosenzweig
paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com
Sat Jun 10 21:32:24 UTC 2017
Nope you are perfectly reasonable. But in this instance I think your perception is incorrect. I could write the next post from the other side myself if I had to. We aren't talking past each other -- we just disagree.
To put it simply, you proposed an elegant compromise. Most of the majority are willing to accept it. So let's just do it.
Paul
Paul Rosenzweig
paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of avri doria
Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2017 4:06 PM
To: ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org
Subject: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] RES: Question Presented (Greg Shatan)
Hi,
Well that is the impression I have. When I see responses to the various positions I think I am seeing people talk past each other.
But I accept that you may not see me as a reasonable person.
avri
On 10-Jun-17 15:54, Paul Rosenzweig wrote:
> I don't think that after a year anyone can reasonably say that the minority position here has not been heard, understood and considered. It just hasn't carried the day.
>
> Paul
>
> Paul Rosenzweig
> paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com
> O: +1 (202) 547-0660
> M: +1 (202) 329-9650
> VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739
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> 4
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of avri doria
> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2017 2:06 PM
> To: ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] RES: Question Presented (Greg Shatan)
>
> Hi,
>
> My concern is that the minority may be large enough to deny group consensus. I am not sure there is overwhelming consensus, especially when you count those of us that are somewhere in the middle.
>
> Also in any form of ICANN or rough consensus, it is important that no minority feel its position has not been heard, understood and fully considered.
>
> Greg is appropriately trying to call consensus, and, I think also appropriately, those who feel they have not been heard, understood and considered feel we are not there yet.
>
> Reading the degree of misunderstanding there still seems to b eabout the various position of others, I tend to also agree we have not yet reached any sort of ICANN or rough consensus.
>
> avri
>
> On 10-Jun-17 11:34, Paul Rosenzweig wrote:
>> Greg
>>
>> There was an overwhelming consensus for your approach both on the
>> call and in the subsequent discussions on the list where your ideas
>> (or my somewhat modified version) garnered significant support. It
>> is time, and past time, for this group to put this issue to bed.
>>
>> I can understand why those whose opinions have not carried the day
>> would prefer to not resolve the issue, but if we cannot move forward
>> at this juncture with a wide consensus in the group (albeit with
>> minority objection from the representatives of several governments)
>> then we should just close the group out altogether.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> PS -- You do not need to elaborate on your handling of this
>> contentious group, which has been quite patient.
>>
>> Paul Rosenzweig
>> paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com
>> O: +1 (202) 547-0660
>> M: +1 (202) 329-9650
>> VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739
>> www.redbranchconsulting.com
>> My PGP Key:
>> https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA0666
>> 8
>> 4
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
>> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Thiago Braz
>> Jardim Oliveira
>> Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 6:47 PM
>> To: ws2-jurisdiction <ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
>> Subject: [Ws2-jurisdiction] RES: Question Presented (Greg Shatan)
>>
>> Dear Greg,
>>
>> It would have been best if you could have sent your question to the
>> group prior to the call, and not only as the call was happening.
>> People who were not present, and only saw the proposal in their
>> mailing list afterwards, might perhaps be misled into thinking that
>> the question you drafted came from the group, or that it reflected
>> some degree of consensus within the group.
>>
>> May I highlight, in that context, that you disregarded the suggestion
>> to submit Jorge's proposal to the group for consideration. His
>> proposal, which I and others seconded, was to have the group discuss
>> the mandate in respect of concrete cases, and not develop an ex-ante position in abstract.
>>
>> As to the question itself, my first observation is that we are not
>> supposed to ask anything like this now. As reflected in our revised
>> work plan of 24 April 2017, it was agreed that "the Subgroup will
>> identify issues before it goes on to explore remedies"; "for each
>> issue, the group will then look at proposed remedies"; "the group
>> should not discuss a remedy until an issue has been identified that
>> requires discussion of that remedy". The question you drafted goes in
>> the opposite direction, as it concerns one imaginable remedy (change
>> to ICANN's status or location), prior to having identified what are the issues to be discussed by the group.
>>
>> My second remark is that your proposal makes a couple of assumptions
>> that are not accurate nor necessary. For example, in the first bullet
>> point, you assume that no form of immunity from domestic jurisdiction
>> is possible for ICANN in case it remains an organisation incorporated
>> in California. This is not true, as immunity arrangements are
>> possible under different forms. Take the ICRC, which has domestic and
>> international law immunities, even though it remains a private organisation governed by Swiss law.
>>
>> My third remark is about the logical chain in the third bullet point.
>> There is this suggestion that if we can't reach consensus on the
>> mandate, then we would need to refer the question you drafted to the
>> Plenary. Well, if there is no consensus on the mandate, then we
>> should simply refer the mandate itself to the Plenary, not any
>> question pre-empting hypothetical outcomes which could, by the way,
>> only be reached in case the group engages in substantive discussions
>> on the issues identified by the group and on the correspondent possible remedies..
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Thiago
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Mensagem original-----
>> De: Greg Shatan [mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com] Enviada em:
>> sexta-feira, 9 de junho de 2017 01:47
>> Para: Kavouss Arasteh
>> Cc: Thiago Braz Jardim Oliveira; ws2-jurisdiction
>> Assunto: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Question Presented (Greg Shatan)
>>
>> Thiago, this slide was prepared prior to the call as a strawman to
>> assist with the discussion. As a result of the call, we now have a
>> number of suggestions for changes or alternatives to the question, so
>> we have moved beyond the strawman. Of course, as you have noted,
>> some version of this question has been discussed by the Subgroup before.
>>
>>
>> Kavouss, since we have moved beyond this formulation of the question,
>> I'm not sure it's necessary to address whether the strawman question
>> is biased or leads to a predetermined judgment (on the latter, since
>> there are at least two opposing answers, I don't see how that can be
>> the case). However, if you have any observations you would like to
>> share that would be helpful in revising the question or preparing an
>> alternative to it, please do share your thoughts. Thank you.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Kavouss Arasteh
>> <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear Greg,
>> Dear All, It was not,
>> The question is biased giving a prédétermine judgement
>> I do not agree with this question.
>> Regards
>> Kavouss
>>
>> 2017-06-08 22:48 GMT+02:00 Kavouss Arasteh
>> <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> Dear All, It was not,
>> The question is biased giving a prédétermine judgement
>> I do not agree with this question.
>> Regards
>>
>> Kavouss
>>
>>
>> 2017-06-08 20:21 GMT+02:00 Thiago Braz Jardim Oliveira
>> <thiago.jardim at itamaraty.gov.br <mailto:thiago.jardim at itamaraty.gov.br> >:
>>
>>
>> Greg,
>>
>> Help me with this. Was this question you wanted to discuss at
>> today's call presented to the group earlier than today or before
>> today's call?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Thiago
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Mensagem original-----
>> De: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>
>> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org> ] Em nome de
>> ws2-jurisdiction-request at icann.org
>> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-request at icann.org>
>> Enviada em: quinta-feira, 8 de junho de 2017 10:29
>> Para: ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org
>> Assunto: Ws2-jurisdiction Digest, Vol 12, Issue 18
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
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>> 1. Question Presented (Greg Shatan)
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>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 09:28:50 -0400
>> From: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
>> To: ws2-jurisdiction <ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
>> Cc: "acct-staff at icann.org" <acct-staff at icann.org>
>> Subject: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Question Presented
>> Message-ID:
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