[Ws2-jurisdiction] RES: Question Presented (Greg Shatan)
avri doria
avri at apc.org
Sun Jun 11 06:35:58 UTC 2017
Well, we do have 2 forms of consensus listed in our charter.
/a) Full Consensus - a position where no minority disagrees;
identified by an absence of objection/
/b) Consensus – a position where a small minority disagrees, but
most agree/
/ /
/In the absence of Full Consensus, the Chair(s) should allow for the
submission of minority viewpoint(s) and these, along with the consensus
view, shall be included in the report./
/In a rare case, the chair(s) may decide that the use of a poll is
reasonable to assess the level of support for a recommendation. However,
care should be taken in using polls that they do not become votes, as
there are often disagreements about the meanings of the poll questions
or of the poll results./
/Any member who disagrees with the consensus-level designation made by
the Chair(s), or believes that his/her contributions are being
systematically ignored or discounted should first discuss the
circumstances with the relevant sub-group chair or the
CCWG-Accountability co-chairs. In the event that the matter cannot be
resolved satisfactorily, the group member should request an opportunity
to discuss the situation with the Chairs of the chartering organizations
or their designated representatives. // /
But the definition of "small minority" is left undefined and acceptance
of the consensus call is something that needs to be accepted by the
group itself - including by those in the minority.. In other documents
within ICANN that discuss how to discover consensus, one finds it
related to other forms of consensus defined in other similar
organisations. Sometimes those definitions, found elsewhere in ICANN and
similar IG organizations, one can find useful guidance for situations
such as this.
finally, since this is a CCWG, and will need to be approved by all of
concerened SOAC, we better make sure we deal with consensus calls
correctly or it may come back to bite us later.
avri
On 10-Jun-17 18:24, Kavouss Arasteh wrote:
> Dear All,
> Consensus is consensus without any adjective.
> I disagree to add an adjective ,like soft or rough or relative or ....
> to it.
> This is an invention by a specific group of people and does not have
> any valid and legitimate basis.
> I hope people in their reply respect others withourt recourse to any
> irony.Regards
> Kavouss
>
>
> 2017-06-11 0:19 GMT+02:00 Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com
> <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>>:
>
> Paul,
> I know you since many many years and in particular during your
> particular position in WS1
> Regards.
> Kavouss
>
>
>
> 2017-06-10 23:32 GMT+02:00 Paul Rosenzweig
> <paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com
> <mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>>:
>
> Nope you are perfectly reasonable. But in this instance I
> think your perception is incorrect. I could write the next
> post from the other side myself if I had to. We aren't
> talking past each other -- we just disagree.
>
> To put it simply, you proposed an elegant compromise. Most of
> the majority are willing to accept it. So let's just do it.
>
> Paul
>
> Paul Rosenzweig
> paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com
> <mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
> O: +1 (202) 547-0660 <tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660>
> M: +1 (202) 329-9650 <tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650>
> VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739 <tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739>
> www.redbranchconsulting.com <http://www.redbranchconsulting.com>
> My PGP Key:
> https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684
> <https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>
> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of avri
> doria
> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2017 4:06 PM
> To: ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] RES: Question Presented (Greg
> Shatan)
>
> Hi,
>
> Well that is the impression I have. When I see responses to
> the various positions I think I am seeing people talk past
> each other.
>
> But I accept that you may not see me as a reasonable person.
>
> avri
>
>
> On 10-Jun-17 15:54, Paul Rosenzweig wrote:
> > I don't think that after a year anyone can reasonably say
> that the minority position here has not been heard, understood
> and considered. It just hasn't carried the day.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Paul Rosenzweig
> > paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com
> <mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
> > O: +1 (202) 547-0660 <tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660>
> > M: +1 (202) 329-9650 <tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650>
> > VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739 <tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739>
> > www.redbranchconsulting.com <http://www.redbranchconsulting.com>
> > My PGP Key:
> >
> https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA06668
> <https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA06668>
> > 4
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>
> > [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of avri
> doria
> > Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2017 2:06 PM
> > To: ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] RES: Question Presented
> (Greg Shatan)
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > My concern is that the minority may be large enough to deny
> group consensus. I am not sure there is overwhelming
> consensus, especially when you count those of us that are
> somewhere in the middle.
> >
> > Also in any form of ICANN or rough consensus, it is
> important that no minority feel its position has not been
> heard, understood and fully considered.
> >
> > Greg is appropriately trying to call consensus, and, I think
> also appropriately, those who feel they have not been heard,
> understood and considered feel we are not there yet.
> >
> > Reading the degree of misunderstanding there still seems to
> b eabout the various position of others, I tend to also agree
> we have not yet reached any sort of ICANN or rough consensus.
> >
> > avri
> >
> > On 10-Jun-17 11:34, Paul Rosenzweig wrote:
> >> Greg
> >>
> >> There was an overwhelming consensus for your approach both
> on the
> >> call and in the subsequent discussions on the list where
> your ideas
> >> (or my somewhat modified version) garnered significant
> support. It
> >> is time, and past time, for this group to put this issue to
> bed.
> >>
> >> I can understand why those whose opinions have not carried
> the day
> >> would prefer to not resolve the issue, but if we cannot
> move forward
> >> at this juncture with a wide consensus in the group (albeit
> with
> >> minority objection from the representatives of several
> governments)
> >> then we should just close the group out altogether.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> PS -- You do not need to elaborate on your handling of this
> >> contentious group, which has been quite patient.
> >>
> >> Paul Rosenzweig
> >> paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com
> <mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
> >> O: +1 (202) 547-0660 <tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660>
> >> M: +1 (202) 329-9650 <tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650>
> >> VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739 <tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739>
> >> www.redbranchconsulting.com
> <http://www.redbranchconsulting.com>
> >> My PGP Key:
> >>
> https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA0666
> <https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA0666>
> >> 8
> >> 4
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>
> >> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of
> Thiago Braz
> >> Jardim Oliveira
> >> Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 6:47 PM
> >> To: ws2-jurisdiction <ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>>
> >> Subject: [Ws2-jurisdiction] RES: Question Presented (Greg
> Shatan)
> >>
> >> Dear Greg,
> >>
> >> It would have been best if you could have sent your
> question to the
> >> group prior to the call, and not only as the call was
> happening.
> >> People who were not present, and only saw the proposal in their
> >> mailing list afterwards, might perhaps be misled into
> thinking that
> >> the question you drafted came from the group, or that it
> reflected
> >> some degree of consensus within the group.
> >>
> >> May I highlight, in that context, that you disregarded the
> suggestion
> >> to submit Jorge's proposal to the group for consideration. His
> >> proposal, which I and others seconded, was to have the
> group discuss
> >> the mandate in respect of concrete cases, and not develop
> an ex-ante position in abstract.
> >>
> >> As to the question itself, my first observation is that we
> are not
> >> supposed to ask anything like this now. As reflected in our
> revised
> >> work plan of 24 April 2017, it was agreed that "the
> Subgroup will
> >> identify issues before it goes on to explore remedies";
> "for each
> >> issue, the group will then look at proposed remedies"; "the
> group
> >> should not discuss a remedy until an issue has been
> identified that
> >> requires discussion of that remedy". The question you
> drafted goes in
> >> the opposite direction, as it concerns one imaginable
> remedy (change
> >> to ICANN's status or location), prior to having identified
> what are the issues to be discussed by the group.
> >>
> >> My second remark is that your proposal makes a couple of
> assumptions
> >> that are not accurate nor necessary. For example, in the
> first bullet
> >> point, you assume that no form of immunity from domestic
> jurisdiction
> >> is possible for ICANN in case it remains an organisation
> incorporated
> >> in California. This is not true, as immunity arrangements are
> >> possible under different forms. Take the ICRC, which has
> domestic and
> >> international law immunities, even though it remains a
> private organisation governed by Swiss law.
> >>
> >> My third remark is about the logical chain in the third
> bullet point.
> >> There is this suggestion that if we can't reach consensus
> on the
> >> mandate, then we would need to refer the question you
> drafted to the
> >> Plenary. Well, if there is no consensus on the mandate, then we
> >> should simply refer the mandate itself to the Plenary, not any
> >> question pre-empting hypothetical outcomes which could, by
> the way,
> >> only be reached in case the group engages in substantive
> discussions
> >> on the issues identified by the group and on the
> correspondent possible remedies..
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Thiago
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Mensagem original-----
> >> De: Greg Shatan [mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com
> <mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>] Enviada em:
> >> sexta-feira, 9 de junho de 2017 01:47
> >> Para: Kavouss Arasteh
> >> Cc: Thiago Braz Jardim Oliveira; ws2-jurisdiction
> >> Assunto: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Question Presented (Greg
> Shatan)
> >>
> >> Thiago, this slide was prepared prior to the call as a
> strawman to
> >> assist with the discussion. As a result of the call, we
> now have a
> >> number of suggestions for changes or alternatives to the
> question, so
> >> we have moved beyond the strawman. Of course, as you have
> noted,
> >> some version of this question has been discussed by the
> Subgroup before.
> >>
> >>
> >> Kavouss, since we have moved beyond this formulation of the
> question,
> >> I'm not sure it's necessary to address whether the strawman
> question
> >> is biased or leads to a predetermined judgment (on the
> latter, since
> >> there are at least two opposing answers, I don't see how
> that can be
> >> the case). However, if you have any observations you would
> like to
> >> share that would be helpful in revising the question or
> preparing an
> >> alternative to it, please do share your thoughts. Thank you.
> >>
> >> Greg
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Kavouss Arasteh
> >> <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Greg,
> >> Dear All, It was not,
> >> The question is biased giving a prédétermine judgement
> >> I do not agree with this question.
> >> Regards
> >> Kavouss
> >>
> >> 2017-06-08 22:48 GMT+02:00 Kavouss Arasteh
> >> <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>>:
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear All, It was not,
> >> The question is biased giving a prédétermine
> judgement
> >> I do not agree with this question.
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Kavouss
> >>
> >>
> >> 2017-06-08 20:21 GMT+02:00 Thiago Braz Jardim
> Oliveira
> >> <thiago.jardim at itamaraty.gov.br
> <mailto:thiago.jardim at itamaraty.gov.br>
> <mailto:thiago.jardim at itamaraty.gov.br
> <mailto:thiago.jardim at itamaraty.gov.br>> >:
> >>
> >>
> >> Greg,
> >>
> >> Help me with this. Was this question
> you wanted to discuss at
> >> today's call presented to the group earlier than today or
> before
> >> today's call?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Thiago
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Mensagem original-----
> >> De: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>
> >> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>>
> >> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>
> >> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>> ] Em nome de
> >> ws2-jurisdiction-request at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-request at icann.org>
> >> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-request at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-request at icann.org>>
> >> Enviada em: quinta-feira, 8 de junho
> de 2017 10:29
> >> Para: ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org
> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
> >> Assunto: Ws2-jurisdiction Digest, Vol
> 12, Issue 18
> >>
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> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. Question Presented (Greg Shatan)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 09:28:50 -0400
> >> From: Greg Shatan
> <gregshatanipc at gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>
> >> To: ws2-jurisdiction
> <ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>>
> >> Cc: "acct-staff at icann.org
> <mailto:acct-staff at icann.org>" <acct-staff at icann.org
> <mailto:acct-staff at icann.org>>
> >> Subject: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Question
> Presented
> >> Message-ID:
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