[council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
Stephanie E Perrin
stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
Wed Apr 27 17:42:35 UTC 2022
Thank you very much for this intervention Paul. I think it would work
and be very helpful, particularly the link....but it is up to Manju.
Kind regards,
Stephanie Perrin
On 2022-04-26 10:34 a.m., McGrady, Jr., Paul D. wrote:
>
> +1 Stephanie.
>
> Phillipe, I see no harm in including the following sentence that Manju
> suggests:
>
> “While the Council is willing to pursue these next steps, it is
> important to note that Non-Commercial Stakeholders Group expressed its
> opposition to the approach.”
>
> I also believe there is no harm in linking to the NCSG’s letter such
> that they do not believe they have to deal directly with the Board on
> this. The content at the link is clearly branded NCSG and I don’t
> think any Board member will believe that what the NCSG has to say in
> its letter is coming from the Council given the context of the
> Council’s letter and the branding of the NCSG’s letter. We can’t be
> in the business of editing C’s & SG’s communications, but we should be
> in the business of noting them and passing them along in a way that is
> distinct from the Council’s own voice. With all respect and personal
> affection, the only significant objection to this link has come from
> the Council’s liaison to the GAC. We have sitting Councilors asking
> for it and, I hope my memory is correct, no sitting Councilors
> objecting to it (sorry if I got that wrong, but I can say with
> certainty that there is no overwhelming surge against including the link).
>
> Can we please *_deescalate_* all of this by including the link as
> originally requested? It can be hyperlinked to “expressed its
> opposition” in the proposed sentence above. Then perhaps the NCSG will
> no longer feel the need for “The NCSG will communicate directly to the
> Board regarding the rationale of their opposition.”
>
> Stephanie & Manju, does that work for you?
>
> Best,
>
> Paul
>
> *From:*council <council-bounces at gnso.icann.org> *On Behalf Of
> *Stephanie E Perrin via council
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 26, 2022 8:38 AM
> *To:* council at gnso.icann.org
> *Subject:* Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics
> dialogue
>
> [EXTERNAL MESSAGE]
>
> Strongly support Manju's clarification. Folks, you do not have to
> support our view, you just have to support our right to express it
> clearly.
>
> Stephanie Perrin
>
> On 2022-04-25 9:19 p.m., 陳曼茹 Manju Chen via council wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm not sure which version we're checking now, but I want to point
> out that the version I see, where it says 'the NCSG expressed its
> opposition to the conversation between the Council and the GAC*_on
> this subject_*' is inaccurate.
>
> As we have repeatedly stated, it's not the subject of the dialogue
> we oppose, but the approach initiated by the Board.
>
> I strongly opposed the edits as it mischaracterize NCSG's position
> and reasons for objection.
>
> I would suggest we just keep the sentence as it was, better if we
> add a line of clarification:
>
> While the Council is willing to pursue these next steps, it is
> important to note that Non-Commercial Stakeholders Group expressed
> its opposition to the approach. The NCSG will communicate directly
> to the Board regarding the rationale of their opposition.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Manju
>
> On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 7:40 AM Justine Chew via council
> <council at gnso.icann.org> wrote:
>
> Dear Philippe,
>
> Thank you for taking on board my suggestion -- what you have
> included in your version 4 at the end of para 3 works for me.
>
>
> Best,
> Justine
>
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 at 00:45, <philippe.fouquart at orange.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Paul, you might indeed, you might :) I have the
> same impression of there being nothing controversial in
> these changes, but they provide useful context, hence the
> suggested inclusion.
>
> I should have said shorter, in fact, rather than concise.
>
> Best,
>
> Philippe
>
> Orange Restricted
>
> *From:*McGrady, Jr., Paul D. <PMcGrady at taftlaw.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2022 6:31 PM
> *To:* FOUQUART Philippe INNOV/NET
> <philippe.fouquart at orange.com>; Justine Chew
> <justine.chew.icann at gmail.com>; council at gnso icann. org
> <council at gnso.icann.org>
> *Cc:* Jeff Neuman <jeff at jjnsolutions.com>; Kurt Pritz
> <kurt at kjpritz.com>; GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [council] Draft letter to the Board on
> closed generics dialogue
>
> Thanks Phillippe. Since Justine didn’t express what the
> ALAC did not like about my proposed enhancements, and
> since being concise means “brief but *comprehensive*”,
> might I _cheekily_ suggest that my very modest changes
> resulted in the more concise version since I really do
> believe that some of the framing in your initial draft
> didn’t contain all of the necessary information needed for
> the Board to understand where we are coming from on this.
> Nothing I included should be controversial.
>
> Best,
>
> Paul
>
> *From:* philippe.fouquart at orange.com
> <philippe.fouquart at orange.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2022 11:24 AM
> *To:* Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann at gmail.com>;
> McGrady, Jr., Paul D. <PMcGrady at taftlaw.com>; council at gnso
> icann. org <council at gnso.icann.org>
> *Cc:* Jeff Neuman <jeff at jjnsolutions.com>; Kurt Pritz
> <kurt at kjpritz.com>; GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [council] Draft letter to the Board on
> closed generics dialogue
>
> [EXTERNAL MESSAGE]
>
> [responding to Justine’s email that followed Paul’s]
>
> Dear Councilors,
>
> Paul’s suggestions seem to be essentially quoting the
> letter and framing paper – however, if like Justine below,
> some councilors would consider that context to be
> unnecessary or restrictive, let the list know, (and if so,
> for ease of editing and given the time constraint we’d
> revert back to the previous - more concise - version)
>
> @Justine <mailto:justine.chew.icann at gmail.com> I’ve
> slightly reworded your other suggestion to make it sound
> less one-directional, at the risk of stating the obvious.
> Hope that’ll work.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Philippe
>
> *From:*Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2022 10:36 AM
> *To:* McGrady, Jr., Paul D. <PMcGrady at taftlaw.com>;
> FOUQUART Philippe INNOV/NET <philippe.fouquart at orange.com>
> *Cc:* Jeff Neuman <jeff at jjnsolutions.com>; Kurt Pritz
> <kurt at kjpritz.com>; GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on
> closed generics dialogue
>
> Hello Paul,
>
> I think the simpler version 2 of the draft reply with
> amendments as proposed by Philippe regarding references to
> (a) NCSG's letter and (b) "modalities" is sufficient for
> the present purposes.
>
> Hello Philippe,
>
> My 3rd point was a suggestion to indicate that Council is
> undertaking some thinking for the dialogue, so, perhaps
> something along the lines of the following could be
> considered? While I won't insist on it, I think it's
> useful to provide some context on the timing of this response.
>
> /It is on that basis that the Council is willing to
> pursue next steps for the facilitated dialogue,
> subject to mutual agreement with the GAC on the
> conditions _which the Council is preparing to
> propose_ for that dialogue./
>
>
> Thanks,
> Justine
>
> On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 at 04:11, McGrady, Jr., Paul D.
> <PMcGrady at taftlaw.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Philippe, Kurt, Justine, and Jeff.
>
> Dear All:
>
> I’m happy with the NCSG’s letter being attached, or
> not, but I do think it is important to at least call
> it out since we don’t want to give the misimpression
> that the Council is completely unified on this topic.
> I for one have a *_great deal of sympathy_* with the
> idea that GAC advice should not restart policy work in
> the GNSO, but rather the Board needs to figure out how
> to implement (via IRT) both the completed policy
> Recommendations and the GAC advice in the next version
> of the Applicant Guidebook (like they did with much of
> the GAC advice that rolled in after the policy work
> was done for the first round). Hopefully something
> will come out of this dialogue that helps in that process.
>
> As for the letter itself, I think we could just as
> easily say “Dear Board, of course we are happy to talk
> with the GAC about their concerns. We will reach out
> to them and get it set up.” But, we do like our
> letters here in ICANNland, so my marked up version
> (based off the last version sent by Philippe) is
> attached. If we are going to frame the issues,
> instead of just a quick “we are on it” response, I
> think a tiny bit of more detail of how we got here
> makes sense. Hopefully my proposed changes (which are
> in red on my screen) will be viewed as friendly
> amendments, which is the spirit in which they are offered.
>
> Thank all!
>
> Best,
>
> Paul
>
> *Taft*
>
>
>
> * /*
>
>
>
> *Paul D. McGrady, Jr.*
> Partner
> PMcGrady at taftlaw.com <mailto:PMcGrady at taftlaw.com>
> Dir: 312.836.4094 | Cell: 312.882.5020
> Tel: 312.527.4000 | Fax: 312.754.2354
> 111 E. Wacker Drive, Suite 2800
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>
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>
> *From:* council <council-bounces at gnso.icann.org> *On
> Behalf Of *philippe.fouquart--- via council
> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2022 1:57 PM
> *To:* Jeff Neuman <jeff at jjnsolutions.com>; Justine
> Chew <justine.chew.icann at gmail.com>; Kurt Pritz
> <kurt at kjpritz.com>
> *Cc:* GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org>; council at gnso
> icann. org <council at gnso.icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on
> closed generics dialogue
>
> [EXTERNAL MESSAGE]
>
> Kurt, Justine, Jeff, thanks for the inputs.
>
> On 1) and reference to the NCSG’s letter: The
> reference is on record with the minutes, and can also
> be found in the Council list archive, I don’t think
> there’s any risk this goes unnoticed, I’d suggest we
> simply say While the Council is willing to pursue
> these next steps, it is important to note that
> Non-Commercial Stakeholders Group expressed its
> opposition to the approach.
>
> Manju (since it is you who spoke on this during our
> call): would you be fine with this?
>
> On 2) and modalities, I’d suggest we go for Jeff’s
> edits and simply say in the second paragraph:
>
> The Council is appreciative of the ICANN Board’s
> attention to GNSO related matters and is willing to
> pursue next steps for the facilitated dialogue,
> subject to mutual agreement with the GAC on the
> conditions for that dialogue.
>
> Ironically, in French, the equivalent of ‘modalities’
> has a sense of a series of menial tasks that the
> authors would consider a) quite straightforward and b)
> as a result, generally not worth doing by themselves.
> Neither of which would probably be true here I think.
>
> It seems 2) alleviates the need to elaborate as,
> Justine, you suggested with your 3^rd point but let us
> know if it doesn’t work.
>
> As attached with diff marks.
>
> Regards,
>
> Philippe
>
> *From:* Jeff Neuman <jeff at jjnsolutions.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2022 3:48 PM
> *To:* Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann at gmail.com>;
> Kurt Pritz <kurt at kjpritz.com>; FOUQUART Philippe
> INNOV/NET <philippe.fouquart at orange.com>
> *Cc:* GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org>; council at gnso
> icann. org <council at gnso.icann.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [council] Draft letter to the Board on
> closed generics dialogue
>
> I strongly urge that the letter from the NCSG is not
> included with this letter. As Justine states, there
> are some mischaracterizations in that letter and as
> far as I am aware the rest of the Council does not
> agree with the opinions expressed by the NCSG. You
> can indicate that the NCSG opposed the meeting in the
> letter without any attachments. If you include the
> NCSG letter, would you consider adding letters from
> the other SGs and Cs that are in support of the
> meeting? I believe the best way is to note the NCSG’s
> disagreement, but not attach anything.
>
> And with respect to the word “modalities”, it is an
> unnecessary word. A “modality” is a condition is it
> not? So I would just state: “….that the Council is
> willing to pursue next steps for the facilitated
> dialogue, subject to mutual agreement with the GAC on
> the conditions for that dialogue.”
>
>
>
> Jeffrey J. Neuman
>
> Founder & CEO
>
> JJN Solutions, LLC
>
> p: +1.202.549.5079
>
> E: jeff at jjnsolutions.com <mailto:jeff at jjnsolutions.com>
>
> http://jjnsolutions.com <http://jjnsolutions.com>
>
> *From:* council <council-bounces at gnso.icann.org> *On
> Behalf Of *Justine Chew via council
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2022 8:12 PM
> *To:* Kurt Pritz <kurt at kjpritz.com>; Philippe Fouquart
> <philippe.fouquart at orange.com>
> *Cc:* GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org>; council at gnso
> icann. org <council at gnso.icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on
> closed generics dialogue
>
> Hello Philippe, Kurt,
>
> 1. I agree with Kurt on the NCSG letter, and if it
> were to be included, I think we should at least
> address the assertion that "GAC has been silent since
> 2013 on the matter of Closed Generics" as called out
> by Jeff as a mis-characterization of the GAC on the
> part of NCSG.
>
>
> 2. I understand the word "modalities" to mean "ways of
> doing something", but if there's a better word to
> address Kurt's concerns then by all means, let's
> consider that.
>
> 3. Would it be feasible to add to the end of the
> second paragraph, a suggestion that "the conditions
> and modalities for that dialogue" will be forthcoming?
> That would indicate that Council is giving thought to
> those and will continue to do so (hence allowing for
> the Closed Generics small team leeway to do its work).
>
> Thanks for considering.
>
> Kind regards,
> Justine
>
> On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 at 06:54, Kurt Pritz via council
> <council at gnso.icann.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Philippe:
>
> Two comments:
>
> 1. If the NCSG has requested that reference to
> their comment should be included it in the letter,
> then we should include it. If not, you might ask
> if they want that (and if they do, include it). I
> don’t think it adds value at this point — but will
> add value as we get into the meeting set-up, the
> discussion scope, and the actions taken with any
> recommendations that come out of the meeting.
>
> 2. I personally recommend that we avoid the use of
> the term ‘modalities.’ I don’t know what it means
> and, if participating in a group tasked with
> identifying them, I wouldn’t know what they are. I
> right clicked on the word and found that Microsoft
> knows of no synonyms. I looked it up in a popular
> online dictionary and came up with:
>
> — the quality or state of being modal; a
> modal quality or attribute;
>
> — the classification of logical
> propositions according to their asserting or
> denying the possibility,
> impossibility, contingency, or necessity of
> their content;
>
> — one of the main avenues of sensation (such
> as vision);
>
> — a usually physical therapeutic agency
>
> Not getting the sense from there, I looked for its
> use in a sentence and found:
>
> "Ineluctable modality of the visible: at least
> that if no more, thought through my eyes.”
> /The New Yorker, 7 Feb. 2022/
>
> That did not help me understand the definition but
> did tell me a lot about the kind of people that
> use the word. I understand the word is commonly
> used in governmental settings but we needn’t adopt
> the custom if it is not clarifying or helpful.
>
> Slightly more seriously, when we meet among
> ourselves and with the GAC, we should all
> understand the target and “modalities” seems too
> broad. It would be helpful for me (maybe it is
> just me) to replace the word with commonly spoken
> terms or to parenthetically define it.
>
> Thanks for listening,
>
> Kurt
>
> On Apr 22, 2022, at 3:32 AM,
> philippe.fouquart--- via council
> <council at gnso.icann.org> wrote:
>
> Dear Councilors,
>
> Please find attached for you review a draft
> response letter to the ICANN Board on closed
> generics. It intends to capture the
> conclusions of our discussion during the
> Council call last week.
>
> We would like to have it ready for the Board
> workshop next week, so please have a look
> before April 27th 1200 UTC (Wednesday)
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
>
> Philippe
>
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