[council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
philippe.fouquart at orange.com
philippe.fouquart at orange.com
Wed Apr 27 20:24:44 UTC 2022
Hi everyone,
To wrap-up this up now we have passed the deadline: having seen no concern with having the reference, we will get this v6 sent to the Board hopefully in time for their workshop.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to review and chime in in such a short amount of time.
Regards,
Philippe
From: FOUQUART Philippe INNOV/NET
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2022 5:28 PM
To: 'McGrady, Jr., Paul D.' <PMcGrady at taftlaw.com>; Stephanie E Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>; council at gnso.icann.org
Cc: GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org>
Subject: RE: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
Thanks Paul.
Hi everyone,
To your first point (and Stefanie’s): both Manju’s suggestions have already been included in the draft text circulated earlier today, after Manju’s suggestions. See here<https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/council/2022-April/025616.html>.
So from there, let’s deal with the inclusion of the reference:
1. Either it’s good as is ie no reference and the NCSG liaise directly as they see fit (v5 attached)
2. we add that reference in hyperlink - and remove the reference to the intent. (v6, attached)
My personal preference would be to go for 2 for the sake of simplicity, mindful that’s this remains NCSG correspondence anyway. Jeff in his capacity as GAC liaison expressed some concerns regarding the characterization of GAC advice, hence the initial removal.
So… Question to the list: any councilor opposed to 2, ie keeping that reference in that letter? (v6)
* Absent of concern from councilor(s) by tomorrow, the agreed version will be that v6 (with the reference/pointer)
* If there are concern from councilor(s), it will be v5.
Thanks.
Philippe
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From: council <council-bounces at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council-bounces at gnso.icann.org>> On Behalf Of McGrady, Jr., Paul D. via council
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2022 4:35 PM
To: Stephanie E Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>>; council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
+1 Stephanie.
Phillipe, I see no harm in including the following sentence that Manju suggests:
“While the Council is willing to pursue these next steps, it is important to note that Non-Commercial Stakeholders Group expressed its opposition to the approach.”
I also believe there is no harm in linking to the NCSG’s letter such that they do not believe they have to deal directly with the Board on this. The content at the link is clearly branded NCSG and I don’t think any Board member will believe that what the NCSG has to say in its letter is coming from the Council given the context of the Council’s letter and the branding of the NCSG’s letter. We can’t be in the business of editing C’s & SG’s communications, but we should be in the business of noting them and passing them along in a way that is distinct from the Council’s own voice. With all respect and personal affection, the only significant objection to this link has come from the Council’s liaison to the GAC. We have sitting Councilors asking for it and, I hope my memory is correct, no sitting Councilors objecting to it (sorry if I got that wrong, but I can say with certainty that there is no overwhelming surge against including the link).
Can we please deescalate all of this by including the link as originally requested? It can be hyperlinked to “expressed its opposition” in the proposed sentence above. Then perhaps the NCSG will no longer feel the need for “The NCSG will communicate directly to the Board regarding the rationale of their opposition.”
Stephanie & Manju, does that work for you?
Best,
Paul
From: council <council-bounces at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council-bounces at gnso.icann.org>> On Behalf Of Stephanie E Perrin via council
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2022 8:38 AM
To: council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
[EXTERNAL MESSAGE]
Strongly support Manju's clarification. Folks, you do not have to support our view, you just have to support our right to express it clearly.
Stephanie Perrin
On 2022-04-25 9:19 p.m., 陳曼茹 Manju Chen via council wrote:
Hi all,
I'm not sure which version we're checking now, but I want to point out that the version I see, where it says 'the NCSG expressed its opposition to the conversation between the Council and the GAC on this subject' is inaccurate.
As we have repeatedly stated, it's not the subject of the dialogue we oppose, but the approach initiated by the Board.
I strongly opposed the edits as it mischaracterize NCSG's position and reasons for objection.
I would suggest we just keep the sentence as it was, better if we add a line of clarification:
While the Council is willing to pursue these next steps, it is important to note that Non-Commercial Stakeholders Group expressed its opposition to the approach. The NCSG will communicate directly to the Board regarding the rationale of their opposition.
Many thanks,
Manju
On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 7:40 AM Justine Chew via council <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>> wrote:
Dear Philippe,
Thank you for taking on board my suggestion -- what you have included in your version 4 at the end of para 3 works for me.
Best,
Justine
On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 at 00:45, <philippe.fouquart at orange.com<mailto:philippe.fouquart at orange.com>> wrote:
Thanks Paul, you might indeed, you might :) I have the same impression of there being nothing controversial in these changes, but they provide useful context, hence the suggested inclusion.
I should have said shorter, in fact, rather than concise.
Best,
Philippe
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From: McGrady, Jr., Paul D. <PMcGrady at taftlaw.com<mailto:PMcGrady at taftlaw.com>>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2022 6:31 PM
To: FOUQUART Philippe INNOV/NET <philippe.fouquart at orange.com<mailto:philippe.fouquart at orange.com>>; Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann at gmail.com<mailto:justine.chew.icann at gmail.com>>; council at gnso icann. org <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>>
Cc: Jeff Neuman <jeff at jjnsolutions.com<mailto:jeff at jjnsolutions.com>>; Kurt Pritz <kurt at kjpritz.com<mailto:kurt at kjpritz.com>>; GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org<mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org>>
Subject: RE: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
Thanks Phillippe. Since Justine didn’t express what the ALAC did not like about my proposed enhancements, and since being concise means “brief but comprehensive”, might I cheekily suggest that my very modest changes resulted in the more concise version since I really do believe that some of the framing in your initial draft didn’t contain all of the necessary information needed for the Board to understand where we are coming from on this. Nothing I included should be controversial.
Best,
Paul
From: philippe.fouquart at orange.com<mailto:philippe.fouquart at orange.com> <philippe.fouquart at orange.com<mailto:philippe.fouquart at orange.com>>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2022 11:24 AM
To: Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann at gmail.com<mailto:justine.chew.icann at gmail.com>>; McGrady, Jr., Paul D. <PMcGrady at taftlaw.com<mailto:PMcGrady at taftlaw.com>>; council at gnso icann. org <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>>
Cc: Jeff Neuman <jeff at jjnsolutions.com<mailto:jeff at jjnsolutions.com>>; Kurt Pritz <kurt at kjpritz.com<mailto:kurt at kjpritz.com>>; GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org<mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org>>
Subject: RE: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
[EXTERNAL MESSAGE]
[responding to Justine’s email that followed Paul’s]
Dear Councilors,
Paul’s suggestions seem to be essentially quoting the letter and framing paper - however, if like Justine below, some councilors would consider that context to be unnecessary or restrictive, let the list know, (and if so, for ease of editing and given the time constraint we’d revert back to the previous - more concise - version)
@Justine<mailto:justine.chew.icann at gmail.com> I’ve slightly reworded your other suggestion to make it sound less one-directional, at the risk of stating the obvious. Hope that’ll work.
Thank you.
Philippe
From: Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann at gmail.com<mailto:justine.chew.icann at gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2022 10:36 AM
To: McGrady, Jr., Paul D. <PMcGrady at taftlaw.com<mailto:PMcGrady at taftlaw.com>>; FOUQUART Philippe INNOV/NET <philippe.fouquart at orange.com<mailto:philippe.fouquart at orange.com>>
Cc: Jeff Neuman <jeff at jjnsolutions.com<mailto:jeff at jjnsolutions.com>>; Kurt Pritz <kurt at kjpritz.com<mailto:kurt at kjpritz.com>>; GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org<mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
Hello Paul,
I think the simpler version 2 of the draft reply with amendments as proposed by Philippe regarding references to (a) NCSG's letter and (b) "modalities" is sufficient for the present purposes.
Hello Philippe,
My 3rd point was a suggestion to indicate that Council is undertaking some thinking for the dialogue, so, perhaps something along the lines of the following could be considered? While I won't insist on it, I think it's useful to provide some context on the timing of this response.
It is on that basis that the Council is willing to pursue next steps for the facilitated dialogue, subject to mutual agreement with the GAC on the conditions which the Council is preparing to propose for that dialogue.
Thanks,
Justine
On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 at 04:11, McGrady, Jr., Paul D. <PMcGrady at taftlaw.com<mailto:PMcGrady at taftlaw.com>> wrote:
Thanks Philippe, Kurt, Justine, and Jeff.
Dear All:
I’m happy with the NCSG’s letter being attached, or not, but I do think it is important to at least call it out since we don’t want to give the misimpression that the Council is completely unified on this topic. I for one have a great deal of sympathy with the idea that GAC advice should not restart policy work in the GNSO, but rather the Board needs to figure out how to implement (via IRT) both the completed policy Recommendations and the GAC advice in the next version of the Applicant Guidebook (like they did with much of the GAC advice that rolled in after the policy work was done for the first round). Hopefully something will come out of this dialogue that helps in that process.
As for the letter itself, I think we could just as easily say “Dear Board, of course we are happy to talk with the GAC about their concerns. We will reach out to them and get it set up.” But, we do like our letters here in ICANNland, so my marked up version (based off the last version sent by Philippe) is attached. If we are going to frame the issues, instead of just a quick “we are on it” response, I think a tiny bit of more detail of how we got here makes sense. Hopefully my proposed changes (which are in red on my screen) will be viewed as friendly amendments, which is the spirit in which they are offered.
Thank all!
Best,
Paul
Taft
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From: council <council-bounces at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council-bounces at gnso.icann.org>> On Behalf Of philippe.fouquart--- via council
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 1:57 PM
To: Jeff Neuman <jeff at jjnsolutions.com<mailto:jeff at jjnsolutions.com>>; Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann at gmail.com<mailto:justine.chew.icann at gmail.com>>; Kurt Pritz <kurt at kjpritz.com<mailto:kurt at kjpritz.com>>
Cc: GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org<mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org>>; council at gnso icann. org <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
[EXTERNAL MESSAGE]
Kurt, Justine, Jeff, thanks for the inputs.
On 1) and reference to the NCSG’s letter: The reference is on record with the minutes, and can also be found in the Council list archive, I don’t think there’s any risk this goes unnoticed, I’d suggest we simply say While the Council is willing to pursue these next steps, it is important to note that Non-Commercial Stakeholders Group expressed its opposition to the approach.
Manju (since it is you who spoke on this during our call): would you be fine with this?
On 2) and modalities, I’d suggest we go for Jeff’s edits and simply say in the second paragraph:
The Council is appreciative of the ICANN Board’s attention to GNSO related matters and is willing to pursue next steps for the facilitated dialogue, subject to mutual agreement with the GAC on the conditions for that dialogue.
Ironically, in French, the equivalent of ‘modalities’ has a sense of a series of menial tasks that the authors would consider a) quite straightforward and b) as a result, generally not worth doing by themselves. Neither of which would probably be true here I think.
It seems 2) alleviates the need to elaborate as, Justine, you suggested with your 3rd point but let us know if it doesn’t work.
As attached with diff marks.
Regards,
Philippe
From: Jeff Neuman <jeff at jjnsolutions.com<mailto:jeff at jjnsolutions.com>>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 3:48 PM
To: Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann at gmail.com<mailto:justine.chew.icann at gmail.com>>; Kurt Pritz <kurt at kjpritz.com<mailto:kurt at kjpritz.com>>; FOUQUART Philippe INNOV/NET <philippe.fouquart at orange.com<mailto:philippe.fouquart at orange.com>>
Cc: GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org<mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org>>; council at gnso icann. org <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>>
Subject: RE: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
I strongly urge that the letter from the NCSG is not included with this letter. As Justine states, there are some mischaracterizations in that letter and as far as I am aware the rest of the Council does not agree with the opinions expressed by the NCSG. You can indicate that the NCSG opposed the meeting in the letter without any attachments. If you include the NCSG letter, would you consider adding letters from the other SGs and Cs that are in support of the meeting? I believe the best way is to note the NCSG’s disagreement, but not attach anything.
And with respect to the word “modalities”, it is an unnecessary word. A “modality” is a condition is it not? So I would just state: “….that the Council is willing to pursue next steps for the facilitated dialogue, subject to mutual agreement with the GAC on the conditions for that dialogue.”
[cid:image001.png at 01D85A71.41918610]
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E: jeff at jjnsolutions.com<mailto:jeff at jjnsolutions.com>
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From: council <council-bounces at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council-bounces at gnso.icann.org>> On Behalf Of Justine Chew via council
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2022 8:12 PM
To: Kurt Pritz <kurt at kjpritz.com<mailto:kurt at kjpritz.com>>; Philippe Fouquart <philippe.fouquart at orange.com<mailto:philippe.fouquart at orange.com>>
Cc: GNSO Secs <gnso-secs at icann.org<mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org>>; council at gnso icann. org <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
Hello Philippe, Kurt,
1. I agree with Kurt on the NCSG letter, and if it were to be included, I think we should at least address the assertion that "GAC has been silent since 2013 on the matter of Closed Generics" as called out by Jeff as a mis-characterization of the GAC on the part of NCSG.
2. I understand the word "modalities" to mean "ways of doing something", but if there's a better word to address Kurt's concerns then by all means, let's consider that.
3. Would it be feasible to add to the end of the second paragraph, a suggestion that "the conditions and modalities for that dialogue" will be forthcoming? That would indicate that Council is giving thought to those and will continue to do so (hence allowing for the Closed Generics small team leeway to do its work).
Thanks for considering.
Kind regards,
Justine
On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 at 06:54, Kurt Pritz via council <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>> wrote:
Hi Philippe:
Two comments:
1. If the NCSG has requested that reference to their comment should be included it in the letter, then we should include it. If not, you might ask if they want that (and if they do, include it). I don’t think it adds value at this point - but will add value as we get into the meeting set-up, the discussion scope, and the actions taken with any recommendations that come out of the meeting.
2. I personally recommend that we avoid the use of the term ‘modalities.’ I don’t know what it means and, if participating in a group tasked with identifying them, I wouldn’t know what they are. I right clicked on the word and found that Microsoft knows of no synonyms. I looked it up in a popular online dictionary and came up with:
- the quality or state of being modal; a modal quality or attribute;
- the classification of logical propositions according to their asserting or denying the possibility, impossibility, contingency, or necessity of their content;
- one of the main avenues of sensation (such as vision);
- a usually physical therapeutic agency
Not getting the sense from there, I looked for its use in a sentence and found:
"Ineluctable modality of the visible: at least that if no more, thought through my eyes.” The New Yorker, 7 Feb. 2022
That did not help me understand the definition but did tell me a lot about the kind of people that use the word. I understand the word is commonly used in governmental settings but we needn’t adopt the custom if it is not clarifying or helpful.
Slightly more seriously, when we meet among ourselves and with the GAC, we should all understand the target and “modalities” seems too broad. It would be helpful for me (maybe it is just me) to replace the word with commonly spoken terms or to parenthetically define it.
Thanks for listening,
Kurt
On Apr 22, 2022, at 3:32 AM, philippe.fouquart--- via council <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>> wrote:
Dear Councilors,
Please find attached for you review a draft response letter to the ICANN Board on closed generics. It intends to capture the conclusions of our discussion during the Council call last week.
We would like to have it ready for the Board workshop next week, so please have a look before April 27th 1200 UTC (Wednesday)
Thanks.
Regards,
Philippe
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