[CPWG] Fwd: [GTLD-WG] [registration-issues-wg] New gTLD Applicant Support - improve it, or scrap it?

Thu Aug 8 23:08:29 UTC 2019

I have been reading this thread and now feel compelled to add my 2 cents.

First, to the matter of the ALAC's advocacy for end user interest in the
ICANN environment. I came to this fully vested in what I knoow not just
from practice but as an active advocate that in regard to Internet matters,
the single most important issue for the average Jamaican end user - in the
ICT4D practice we use a label 'the grandmother in Claverty Cottage -  is
access. And access here devolves to mean infrastructure where it exists and
secondly, the cost to access what exists. From the evidence, so-called
Small Islands Developing States (SIDS) share these concerns. Since we have
similar topography, are moving along the same developmental path and share
service providers, it is easy to see these as shared concerns with our
Caribbean cousins. These concerns and advocacy to improve them predate
caucusing with ICANN interests. And, we are quite aware that these do not
fit in the envelope of ICANN interests. But since we are here, we are
always looking over the fence and around the corner for anything that could
impact these clear and present challenges even as we look ahead to others
that might develop if and when we overcome our access challenges. To be
clear, we actively seek allies for this struggle; persons from similar
backgrounds exhibiting similar challenges with shared outlook, interests
and drive to get some useful thing done.

Let the record show that I fully support Evan's analysis and the position
that emerged from that analysis; given our time and capacity, the At-Large
in general and ALAC in particular must laser end user interests as our
lodestar for action. That is not a recent or pulled-from-a-hat position.
Read the R3 paper and you will see it there.  On top of that, Evan has been
a source of support for what I consider to be our - Jamaican and Caribbean
- interests ever since we met. He is thoughtful, passionate on what he
knows, and yes, provocative in his communiques. All of that goes well with
me. He is and remains my friend.

So let talk Applicant Support. I co-chaired that WG, not because I thought
a end user is in dire need of a TLD but I saw it as driving other matters
that inure to the best interests of the end users I represent in the names
and numbers policy development environment.

Like Evan, we have always known that TLD ownership does not in and of
itself track well for end user interest. There is, however, what we
consider a derivative interest. A stake in the game that is the Domain Name
System can be a catalyst for all other interests. And a TLD ownership
and/or operation by somebody from this side of empire - we couch it as MDCs
and LDCs - would fit that goal.  Any increase in TLD ownership among
interests from my side of empire, especially if community-type engagement
is part of the proposition, makes the use case for  enabling content that
potentiate a push/pull stimuli for the infrastructure buildout and lowered
access cost that are high priority and interest to Jamaican internet end
users.

Yes, Evan is right we don't have data to support this. But we're willing to
take it on a wing and a prayer. [Just in case you line up to call me
hypocrite, for the record, I'm not a praying man!] Are there developments
that might provide more useful information? Absolutely!  Are there other
factors that might be more useful for exploitation to objective? Surely
so.  And, I am willing to reassess my position in light of all the new
information, too!

Here's the other thing.  We know these matters of access and cost of access
are shared concerns of our SIDS cousins in the South Pacific as well as
most of our African brethren. They also have other issues that might not be
as impactful on us this side of the globe. But there is enough for us to
make common cause in favour of support for Applicant Support.

Tijani earlier in the thread laid out succinctly the evidence from last
time to demonstrate the missed objectives for Applicant Support. I endorse
every piece of them. Now, on the record, I can tell you that in my view the
At-Large's heightened concern for 'gaming' informed our position on the
stringent conditions that emerged for access to Applicant Support. And was,
unambiguously, contributory to this failure.

I'm sorry but there is a history to this. Everytime I read it, I recall
from experience, heads of agreements pertaining development assistance in
the diplomatic arena. It always seem that the fella seeking assistance must
prove, a priori, he's not a crook. Without apology, that is always
offensive to me. And rankles, especially if you know how this assistance
game goes.

That language offered to forestall 'gaming' is still in play today on the
SubPro WG deliberations. I will reject it on the record.
-Carlton

==============================
*Carlton A Samuels*

*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
=============================

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 2:24 AM Justine Chew <justine.chew at gmail.com> wrote:

> +1 Olivier, Maureen, Sala, Tijani
>
> On *"... imploring ALAC to concentrate its comments on those issues with
> demonstrable effect on end users (abuse, confusion, stability, etc)"*
>
> 1. I try to be mindful of that what applies to me may not, whether in part
> or in full, applies to other end-users and vice versa; I consider the
> diversity of experiences and circumstances across the globe to be of great
> value to At-Large as a stakeholder group and something that requires
> constant management.
>
> 2. I am also concerned with the term "demonstrable effect" insofar as we
> cannot disregard something simply because we don't know of it exists and
> "etc" needs to be carefully and exhaustively described.
>
> Justine
> -----
>
>
> On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 at 14:39, Tijani BEN JEMAA <tijani.benjemaa at topnet.tn>
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Olivier. So true...
>> Yes, demonstrable effect on end users depends on which end-users we are
>> talking about. The Geonames affect end-users in those regions where using
>> the name of their city for commercial purposes represents an agression. And
>> as I said in a previous mail, At-Large must consider the interest of all
>> end-users including those in underserved regions and communities.
>>
>> Tijani
>>
>>
>> Le 7 août 2019 à 22:49, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> unfortunately, I am not 100% aligned on this and am rather more cautious:
>>
>> *"... imploring ALAC to concentrate its comments on those issues with
>> demonstrable effect on end users (abuse, confusion, stability, etc)"*
>>
>> When I read this, I interpret is that it considers the "end user" as
>> being a simple, definable entity. In reality, this is unfortunately not the
>> case. End users have different priorities depending on what country they
>> are from and the At-Large needs to tap input from every place on the
>> planet, not just the vocal ones whose interests are "abuse, confusion,
>> stability, etc."
>> Yes, there are many end users in the world, and no doubt in our
>> community, that have these very concerns as a priority. But there are also
>> many others who have both a different political outlook, but also
>> priorities and understanding of the world. Consider the importance of a
>> ccTLD or a gTLD. You, living in a country where freedom of speech is taken
>> for granted, might not be able to grasp the political importance of a TLD
>> in some parts of the world. Having been at the heart of conflicts regarding
>> .MK and .PS, I can tell you that even though this was a long time ago, it
>> got people in the street to be really upset. When .PS was allocated, some
>> people in the street were celebrating whilst other people in the street
>> were very upset.
>> OK - so they're ccTLDs. Well, consider the issue of Geo Regions now. It's
>> not about abuse, or confusion or stability. It has the potential to tap
>> into people's identity - whether that is cultural, or tribal, or
>> traditional. It is way more complex than an issue of abuse, confusion or
>> stability. For some people, it might be baffling that there is so much
>> emphasis about Geo Regions because they don't see it as an important topic.
>> For others, a region's name might equate to an immediate death in the
>> family through a local conflict; a sense of pride to be part of that
>> region, and a strong sense of hate towards any corporation that might use
>> that region's name in a banal product. I also repeat the concern that there
>> are hundreds of cultures/tribes in the world that have a tradition of oral
>> history and that need to be given the chance of being provided with their
>> own TLD as a matter of survival. That is affecting a small percentage of
>> people on the planet, but I believe we have a duty towards them too.
>>
>> So I question calling the criterion "a demonstrable effect on end users",
>> because this means it needs to have an effect on your average end user, and
>> the world is not made up of average people, but of individuals. If a topic
>> coming before the CPWG has an effect on one person, I'd like to hear from
>> that person, bottom up, and not be told top down that "this has no
>> demonstrable effect on end users" especially if this determination is
>> mechanical/algorithmic.
>>
>> Kindest regards,
>>
>> Olivier
>>
>> ps. don't get me started on the credibility of At-Large in ICANN. I am of
>> the view that ICANN would have no credibility without At-Large.
>>
>>
>> On 07/08/2019 22:31, Jonathan Zuck wrote:
>>
>> Agree completely!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> Jonathan Zuck
>> Executive Director
>> Innovators Network Foundation
>> www.Innovatorsnetwork.org <http://www.innovatorsnetwork.org/>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* GTLD-WG <gtld-wg-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org>
>> <gtld-wg-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Eduardo Diaz
>> <eduardodiazrivera at gmail.com> <eduardodiazrivera at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 7, 2019 8:56:14 AM
>> *To:* CPWG <cpwg at icann.org> <cpwg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [GTLD-WG] [CPWG] [registration-issues-wg] New gTLD
>> Applicant Support - improve it, or scrap it?
>>
>>
>> I recommend that we re-focus our policy magnifying glass towards ICANN
>> policies as suggested by Evan in a previous email: *"... imploring ALAC
>> to concentrate its comments on those issues with demonstrable effect on end
>> users (abuse, confusion, stability, etc)"*
>>
>> So, I suggest that as part of the way the CPWG works today, we frame any
>> future policy work by applying these criteria first and decide if we want
>> to comment, refer it to other WGs or do nothing at all.
>>
>> Let's talk about this during today's call.
>>
>> -ed
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 4:43 AM Evan Leibovitch <evan at telly.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Sala, long time no talk.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 at 04:12, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
>>> salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> My challenge is whether a non-registrant end-user interest exists in
>>>>> this either way, and whether ALAC has credibility to pass judgement on the
>>>>> program at all as part  of its bylaw mandate.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course, the ALAC has credibility, were'nt you a part of ALAC.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed I was, even Vice-Chair for a few years. That's how I got close
>>> enough to understand that there is indeed a challenge of credibility. A
>>> serious one that impairs our voice when we speak on issues that *do* effect
>>> end-users.
>>>
>>> If we are asked "upon what do you base you assertion that end users want
>>> XXX policy?", we struggle. In reality the 15 ALAC reps are making judgment
>>> calls regarding what they think end users want, based on really little more
>>> than an educated guess. (the model of ALAC members soliciting RALOs that
>>> then solicit their ALSs on policy issues is rarely in play.) Those who may
>>> oppose our PoV know this, and have a valid point when they challenge the
>>> basis upon which we choose our sides. Often our educated guesses are good
>>> ones but that's still all they are, devoid of real research of what
>>> end-users want/need from ICANN.
>>>
>>>
>>>> IMO, this is an issue of interest to other ICANN constituencies but the
>>>>> end-user constituency has no stake in how it is resolved.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I disagree. The end user has a stake as was with the Amazon scenario
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Please elaborate. Exactly what stake does the end-user have?
>>> Do you really think end-users care who owns .amazon? Upon what do you
>>> base this assertion?
>>> When I asked around to people I knew who weren't techies or policy
>>> wonks, there was actually a general sentiment that it didn't matter, and if
>>> they had to choose .amazon should go to the book company and .amazonas
>>> should go to the governments if they really thought it was needed.
>>>
>>> I suspect that if we solicited public opinion, globally more people
>>> would find it more useful if the bookstore owned the TLD. Again, what we
>>> might guess with an NGO mindset might conflict with what end-users really
>>> want. So when we stake a position and are challenged, upon what do we base
>>> our PoV? Credibility challenge.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The question at hand is not "is Applicant support worthwhile" but "do
>>>>> end users care if there is applicant support or not".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course they do
>>>>
>>>
>>> Evidence? Rationale? Please, tell me exactly why they care. Not "should
>>> they care" but "do they care". I really want to know the reasoning behind
>>> the assertion.
>>>
>>>
>>>> even if they are not aware, that is where the ALAC has to make a
>>>> judgment call.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Again, what is rationale for why ALAC *must* speak up even if its
>>> constituency has no interest in the issue?
>>> Do we speak merely for the sake of speaking?
>>>
>>> Noted, but your questioning the credibility of ALAC
>>>>
>>>
>>> As Olivier and Maureen and anyone else active in ALAC can attest, the
>>> credibility challenge comes from all over ICANN. I am trying to address it
>>> by imploring ALAC to concentrate its comments on those issues with
>>> demonstrable effect on end users (abuse, confusion, stability, etc)
>>>
>>> - Evan
>>>
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>>
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>> Tijani BEN JEMAA
>>
>>
>>
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