[CPWG] Fwd: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-i

Thu Dec 12 12:45:46 UTC 2019

I guess the IETF when speaking about users being represented by a software, they do not really mean "represented" but they mean a software

doing a certain job on behalf of the users. They are speaking from a pure technical point of view, that allows them when considering end users

in their technical decisions not to ignore this aspect.  I like how  they defined end users from a broader perspective where they said "the end user of a protocol to manage routers is not the router administrator, it is the people using the network that the router operates within"

I think this draft is good and necessary start

Hadia

From: CPWG [mailto:cpwg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Alberto Soto
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 2:30 AM
To: Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond; b_jouris at yahoo.com; avri at acm.org; CPWG
Subject: Re: [CPWG] Fwd: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-i

Recently, in informal talks at NASIG 2019 and then formally in a session at ICANN 66, I said the following: We are the ones who are defending the interests of the end users, but the end users are those who have no idea that ICANN exists , ALAC or someone who defends their interests on the Internet. Are those who have a problem with your domain, or with your internet provider that charges a differential fee for the same service, or with your identity that was stolen via the Internet, or who sees that Amazon wants a domain similar to your region , or several more problems than any of us can imagine. But who does not know where to start claiming, we do, that is why we defend their interests and we are also end users
Never can an end user be represented by software or anything other than a person who knows the rights that the end user has.
I think we should explain this a bit to those who still have doubts ...

Kind regards

Alberto

De: CPWG <cpwg-bounces at icann.org> en nombre de Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com>
Fecha: miércoles, 11 de diciembre de 2019, 20:47
Para: "b_jouris at yahoo.com" <b_jouris at yahoo.com>, "avri at acm.org" <avri at acm.org>, CPWG <cpwg at icann.org>
Asunto: Re: [CPWG] Fwd: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-i

Dear Bill, all,

knowing how many feel in the IETF community, asking the IETF to broaden this document to include ICANN will be met with opposition. After all, this is an Internet Draft meant for the IETF Process.

One bit did, however, make me smile. I quote:

End users are not necessarily a homogenous group; they might have
   different views of how the Internet should work, and might occupy
   several roles, such as a seller, buyer, publisher, reader, service
   provider and consumer.  An end user might be browsing the Web,
   monitoring remote equipment, playing a game, video conferencing with
   colleagues, sending messages to friends, or performing an operation
   in a remote surgery theatre.  They might be "at the keyboard", or
   represented by software indirectly (e.g., as a daemon).

"End users might be represented by software indirectly". A "daemon" is an automated program that runs tasks in the background of a computer. Thus this paragraph appears to note that some "end users" could be represented by a piece of software". I wonder how many people in At-Large are actually pieces of software? Should we subject members to a Turing Test? :-)
Kindest regards,

Olivier
On 07/12/2019 18:27, Bill Jouris via CPWG wrote:
At the moment, this draft RFC is narrowly focused on IETF, and how it prioritizes the interests of end users.  (Or, as we would phrase it, the interests of the At Large community.)  However I believe that there is already a suggestion that it might be broadened to include ICANN.

I have no idea how far IETF's remit runs, and whether that is even an option.  But if it is, At Large might wish to consider weighing in with a group opinion, in addition to whatever individual opinions some of us might offer.

Bill Jouris

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2019 at 10:18 AM, avri doria
<avri at acm.org><mailto:avri at acm.org> wrote:

fyi

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject:     [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for
draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt
Date:     Sat, 7 Dec 2019 10:29:15 +1100
From:     Mark Nottingham <mnot at mnot.net<mailto:mnot at mnot.net>>
To:     hrpc at irtf.org<mailto:hrpc at irtf.org>

The IAB wanted to give this draft wider exposure to folks than just
those on architecture-discuss; comment / feedback welcome (here, or on
the draft issues list at
<https://github.com/intarchboard/for-the-users/issues>).

Apologies if you've seen this before.

Cheers,

> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *internet-drafts at ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts at ietf.org> <mailto:internet-drafts at ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts at ietf.org>>
> *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt*
> *Date: *18 November 2019 at 11:43:38 am AEDT
> *To: *"Mark Nottingham" <mnot at mnot.net<mailto:mnot at mnot.net> <mailto:mnot at mnot.net<mailto:mnot at mnot.net>>>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:draft-iab-for-the-users
> Revision:01
> Title:The Internet is for End Users
> Document date:2019-11-18
> Group:iab
> Pages:11
> URL:
>            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-for-the-users-01..txt
> <https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt>
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-for-the-users/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-for-the-users-01
> Htmlized:
>       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-for-the-users
> Diff:
>           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-for-the-users-01
>
> Abstract:
>   This document explains why the IAB believes the IETF should consider
>   end users as its highest priority concern, and how that can be done.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
> <http://tools.ietf.org/>.

>
> The IETF Secretariat
>

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

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