[gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

Dorrain, Kristine kdorrain at adrforum.com
Tue Dec 3 16:31:05 UTC 2013 

Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their Registrar?  Because I get complaints and I say "go to Compliance" but I don't think there is a process (or I'm unaware of it).    Perhaps, if Compliance is the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes (which seems to me like a slippery slope because I am pretty sure ICANN's compliance team is not staffed to handle that volume of complaints), then the work product of this committee is to make a recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing system/dispute process for Registrant disputes.

But I think we have to answer the question.  It may be that this stuff doesn't go in the TDRP at all, but we can't say Registrants who are the victim of wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no recourse outside of the court systems because the same jurisdictional issues and timing issues and cost issues that predated the UDRP arise.  We need to have some sort of answer to the question "What about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or where the Registrar won't initiate the TDRP process)"?

Kristine

From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM
To: Mike O'Connor
Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

Hi Mike,
i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars.  this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar.
In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this process is "due" to registrants.

i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them.  i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem.  what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies):
http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer

Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue.

Best regards,

Volker




On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:


Hi Mike,

you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.

If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).

Volker

i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP.  that's not the intent.  the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar.  the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted.  but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.


On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:


I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.

If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.

What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.

I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...

Volker


Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue

·         In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves

In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance

Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings

If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal

If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.



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