[gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Wed Dec 4 09:32:21 UTC 2013
Hi Kevin and Holly,
one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more
like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems
for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore
a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than
transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem.
And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with
under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which
does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process
violation.
Volker
> Well said Kevin
>
> Holly
> On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
>
>> I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid
>> domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name,
>> namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark
>> owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner
>> did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the
>> domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the
>> ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are
>> outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP
>> procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute
>> resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to
>> trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain
>> judicially.
>> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the
>> circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and
>> registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a
>> registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where
>> the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and
>> only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not
>> currently available.
>> ____________________________
>> Kevin R Erdman
>> Reichel IP LLP
>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
>> Indianapolis, IN 46202
>> voice 317.677.0689
>> fax 317.454.1349
>> emailkevin at reichelip.com <mailto:kevin at reichelip.com>
>> skype kevimundo
>> webwww.reichelip.com <http://www.reichelip.com>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:*Dorrain, Kristine <mailto:kdorrain at adrforum.com>
>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM
>> *To:*'Volker Greimann' <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>;James M.
>> Bladel <mailto:jbladel at godaddy.com>;Mike O'Connor
>> <mailto:mike at haven2.com>
>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence
>> of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>> I agree.
>> *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM
>> *To:*Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence
>> of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between
>> the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than
>> between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between
>> parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name.
>>
>> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may
>> want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these
>> issues.
>>
>> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in
>> preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the
>> question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an
>> independant panel.
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the
>> UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble
>> opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We
>> don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just
>> create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would
>> be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J
>> Kristine
>> *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org
>> <mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org>[mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org]*On
>> Behalf Of*Volker Greimann
>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM
>> *To:*James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that
>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now --
>> registrant role in TDRP
>>
>> Hi James,
>>
>> excellent points there. I think the case with your example is
>> that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to
>> the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the
>> information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are
>> better left to prior and current registrant.
>>
>> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another
>> process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may
>> not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We
>> could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded
>> to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of
>> that policy.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>> Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to
>> capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial”
>> area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s
>> request to initiate a TDRP.
>> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of
>> the registrant is in question, or that they cannot
>> substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant
>> (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a
>> scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or
>> even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a
>> matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could
>> be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a
>> registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe
>> is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.
>> Thanks—
>> J.
>> *From:*Mike O'Connor <mike at haven2.com <mailto:mike at haven2.com>>
>> *Date:*Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09
>> *To:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
>> *Cc:*"gnso-irtpd at icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd at icann.org>"
>> <gnso-irtpd at icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd at icann.org>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that
>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now --
>> registrant role in TDRP
>> hi Volker,
>> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is
>> either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow
>> the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying
>> the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars.
>> this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the
>> misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
>> i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the
>> best position to figure out the best way to get this done and
>> i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James'
>> "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that
>> seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything
>> that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of
>> leaving registrants in their current situation where these
>> decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse
>> for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of
>> the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating
>> a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not
>> have such an access in the first place.
>>
>> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar
>> to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is
>> another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of
>> the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to
>> charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle
>> the process).
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your
>> sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's
>> not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants
>> are not blocked from that process by their registrar.
>> the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those
>> cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether
>> a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for
>> that appeal pretty high.
>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP
>> process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute
>> process designed to deal with process violations and will
>> turn it into a transfer dispute process between
>> registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a
>> civil conflict between two parties. This will result in
>> increased costs and work for contracted parties.
>>
>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there
>> will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to
>> call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
>>
>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an
>> alternate process between registrant and former
>> registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes
>> sense.
>>
>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the
>> music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant
>> wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to
>> pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser
>> pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will
>> remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent
>> cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the
>> TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their
>> registrar over an IRTP issue
>>
>> ·In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't
>> resolve matters between themselves
>>
>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and
>> registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide
>> a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
>>
>> Build minimum documentation requirements for
>> registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent
>> frivolous filings
>>
>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds
>> as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
>>
>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it --
>> it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
>>
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>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>>
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>>
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
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>>
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>> - Rechtsabteilung -
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>> Key-Systems GmbH
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>> Im Oberen Werk 1
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>> Volker A. Greimann
>>
>> - legal department -
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>>
>>
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>> Im Oberen Werk 1
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>> 66386 St. Ingbert
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>> --------------------------------------------
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>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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