[gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Kevin Erdman
krerdman at live.com
Wed Dec 4 12:35:33 UTC 2013
Hi Volker,
I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing—I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter.
The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question.
IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned.
____________________________
Kevin R Erdman
Reichel IP LLP
212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
Indianapolis, IN 46202
voice 317.677.0689
fax 317.454.1349
email kevin at reichelip.com
skype kevimundo
web www.reichelip.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Volker Greimann
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM
To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman
Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; gnso-irtpd at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi Kevin and Holly,
one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem.
And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation.
Volker
Well said Kevin
Holly
On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially.
The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available.
____________________________
Kevin R Erdman
Reichel IP LLP
212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
Indianapolis, IN 46202
voice 317.677.0689
fax 317.454.1349
email kevin at reichelip.com
skype kevimundo
web www.reichelip.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dorrain, Kristine
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM
To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor
Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org
Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
I agree.
From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM
To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name.
So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues.
In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.
Volker
Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J
Kristine
From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM
To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi James,
excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant.
This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy.
Best,
Volker
Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.
For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.
Thanks—
J.
From: Mike O'Connor <mike at haven2.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09
To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org" <gnso-irtpd at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
hi Volker,
i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
· In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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