[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Why domain names are not like phone numbers (was Re: Some reg'n data I think necessary)

Greg Aaron gca at icginc.com
Tue Mar 22 22:01:43 UTC 2016 

1. Sometimes end-user contact data is not put into RIR WHOIS because it is technically not feasible.  Updating WHOIS every time a dynamic IP is assigned to a different user would be highly inefficient and difficult. 
2. Individuals cannot register IP addresses like they can register domain names.  One could equate a Local Internet Registry (LIR) to a domain name registrar, but the analogy is imprecise  because of #1 and because LIRs don't do business with individuals.
3.  IP addresses are allocated to RIR customers in blocks (and LIRs sub-allocate in blocks too).

In contrast, the domain registration system was designed to allow an entity (an individual, company, etc.) to choose a domain, register it, and manage it individually.  And you can move you domain to a different registrar and to a different hosting provider.  On the other hand IP addresses are not so portable.  You can't take your residential IP address with you; your ISP keeps possession. 

Another difference is that domain names can have semantic meaning.  It is therefore good that the system allows them to be moved and managed differently (more easily )than IP addresses.  And since domains can have semantic meaning, they have additional legal and policy dimensions.

BTW, ARIN has a policy for (non-static?) residential customers.  It requires ISPs to provide the customer's address data, but it can be flagged as private and not displayed in WHOIS.  In such cases the ISP's contact data is displayed, with a required abuse contact.

"Residential Customer Privacy
NRPM 4.2.3.7.3.2 allows organizations to privatize reassignment information for downstream end-user customers that are individuals, not organizations, and receive service at a place of residence for personal use only. ARIN recommends using version 5 templates to privatize residential customer information.  Version 5 templates allow the ISP to submit customer name and street address information for all customers, with a private flag available to designate which records are residential customers that should be private.  Records designated as private will have the customer name and street address removed when displayed in Whois. ISPs must still provide the customer's actual city, state, postal code, and country code. ISPs using this policy must have accurate upstream Abuse and Technical POCs visible on the Whois record for the IP address block from which the addresses are being subdelegated."
https://www.arin.net/resources/request/reassignments.html 


All best,
--Greg


**********************************
Greg Aaron
Vice-President, Product Management
iThreat Cyber Group / Cybertoolbelt.com
mobile: +1.215.858.2257
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-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 2:53 PM
To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Why domain names are not like phone numbers (was Re: Some reg'n data I think necessary)

But per the earlier email of Volker, "that may be the case at the high level or RIRs and their customers, but breaks down at the end customer level." [IP addresses]

It is my understanding that very few end users who are small businesses, home-based businesses, clubs, hobbyists, individuals would have their addresses in the ARIN or other RIR databases (or any other data for that matter). The larger blocks of IP numbers are listed, e.g., to large ISPs, but those ISPs, in turn, generally hold their end customer level private, particularly smaller parties.

Best,
Kathy




On 3/22/2016 2:24 PM, Greg Aaron wrote:
> The analogy between domain names and IP addresses allocated by RIRs (and then SWIPed by those they were allocated to) is much stronger.
>
>
> **********************************
> Greg Aaron
> Vice-President, Product Management
> iThreat Cyber Group / Cybertoolbelt.com
> mobile: +1.215.858.2257
> **********************************
> The information contained in this message is privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org 
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Andrew 
> Sullivan
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 2:14 PM
> To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> Subject: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Why domain names are not like phone numbers 
> (was Re: Some reg'n data I think necessary)
>
> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 06:32:06PM +0100, Volker Greimann wrote:
>> So your argument is that as the domain name node may contain 
>> additional data, it should be treated completely different than a 
>> phone number or an IP address?
> My argument is that the analogy between domain names on the one hand, and your personal phone number or the IP that you get from your ISP when you use DHCP on the other, is not very strong.  There are significant dissimilarities.  The most important (as I think some of us have already argued) are these:
>
>      1.  A domain name is not (necessarily) an end point identifier,
>      whereas a phone number and individual IP address both are.
>
>      2.  A domain name (with the possible exception of an entry in the
>      reverse tree, and even that is controversial) is optional for
>      Internet connectivity, whereas neither an IP address nor a phone
>      number is optional for connectivity to their respective networks.
>
>      3.  Domain names are primarily used to offer services, more like
>      IP address allocations from RIRs or phone-number block assignments
>      under the number portability authorities.
>
> So, "treated completely differently", no; but if we're going to use analogies to inform how we ought to think about this topic we really ought to find ones without such significant dissimilarities.  As ever with analogies, the more dissimilarities one can find that are relevant to the considerations at hand, the more the analogy breaks down.  I therefore think the analogy between domain names and phone numbers or end-user IP addresses is pretty weak.
>
> Best regards,
>
> A
>
> --
> Andrew Sullivan
> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
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