[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
nathalie coupet
nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 10 17:49:06 UTC 2017
When I said 'Internet activities', I meant legal Internet activities. There is no real difference between both visions in practice, only in theory. Because in practice, as shown by ccTLDs operators up to now, the way data protection is applied enables the flow of WHOIS data for all legal purposes we have defined up to now.
I was also not advocating the full disclosure of all and any information randomely. This was just an attempt to focuse on what it meant to allow enough data to flow past the data subject for the benefit of third parties who need this information for their protection. This new law can be interpreted in one hundred ways, and I don't think we can decide which way is right or wrong.
I'm not sure we can settle this dispute through this debate within our WG, and we should definitely not innovate. We should follow what is being done by ccTLD operators, phonebook companies to see what is acceptable and what is not. If people believe this new law is not correctly applied, they should start by filing complaints with ccTLD operators and phonebook providers.
Nathalie
On Friday, February 10, 2017 12:35 PM, "sam at lanfranco.net" <sam at lanfranco.net> wrote:
This difference of opinion is the crucial fork in the road here. Name one other sector, industry, or activity where "fat" disclosure takes place, or where "thin" disclosure harmed development. Anything other than a minimalist "thin" will be a source of endless pain, and for no gain.
Sam L.
Sent from my Huawei Mobile
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
From: Volker Greimann
To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
CC:
This illustrates the basic difference of opinion: Proposal: By not allowing the flow of WHOIS data for anything but purposes backed by legal rights to that information or required for the technical operation of the internet 1) We will strengthen the rights to private data against anyone desiring to abuse that data by claiming to have some ephemeral purpose to access that data 2) The internet economy will likely not be affected 3) By defining restrictive access requirements, we will still enable legitimate cases where access to such data is needed
Best, Volker
Am 10.02.2017 um 17:11 schrieb nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
Proposal: By allowing the flow of WHOIS data to enable as many legitimate activites as possible througout the root and main branches of the tree: 1) we will strengthen the Internet by providing peripheral purposes that protect the medium (consumer protection, research,...) 2) we will protect the Internet economy as much as possible 3) by increasing granularity, we can tackle edge cases at the edge. Nathalie
On Friday, February 10, 2017 11:01 AM, Victoria Sheckler <vsheckler at riaa.com> wrote:
We need to find balance and a constructive way to propose solutions, not this endless back and forth of edge cases.
-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of benny at nordreg.se
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 4:44 AM
To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
+1 to Volker
Spot on, we cant let the criminals endanger all innocents life by default expose data as we do today
--
Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
Benny Samuelsen
Registry Manager - Domainexpert
Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
IANA-ID: 638
Phone: +46.42197080
Direct: +47.32260201
Mobile: +47.40410200
> On 10 Feb 2017, at 10:41, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Pivoting off domain whois is my #1 valued resource in cybercrime investigations.
> Judging from the amount of abuse and spam out there, it is also the #1 valued resource of spammers, cyber criminals, nigerian princes, domain slammers ,etc etc.
>
> And that leads to the question: Is it really worth giving up the private data of all registrants to whoever wants it just to catch a few bad guys?
> And to answer that: I'd rather see a few criminals uncaught if that means the innocent majority will be that much less at risk to be victimized.
>
> Best,
> Volker
>
>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 12:16 PM, benny at nordreg.se <benny at nordreg.se> wrote:
>> Dnsservers, domainstatus, various dates, Registrar
>>
>> None of these data are personal data imo
>>
>> The only info you see in Whois are the contact ID the user have at
>> the registrar/ registry
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:10, nathalie coupet <nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Benny,
>>>
>>> All personal info on personal domains are hidden by default. What are the info that remain available for public view - after personal information have been hidden by default - which still enable technical operability?
>>>
>>>
>>> Nathalie
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 9, 2017 11:46 AM, "benny at nordreg.se" <benny at nordreg.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe not but there are nothing who prevent us from trying to protect people from there mistakes and stupidity and still be able to have certain level of technical operability with whois data.
>>>
>>> A good example are .se which have a whois policy where all personal info on personal domains are hidden by default. The registrant need to opt out of the privacy actively by making a decision. That might be the way we should think instead of what to do to hide data.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
>>>
>>>
>>> Benny Samuelsen
>>> Registry Manager - Domainexpert
>>>
>>> Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
>>> IANA-ID: 638
>>>
>>> Phone: +46.42197080
>>> Direct: +47.32260201
>>> Mobile: +47.40410200
>>>
>>> On 09/02/2017, 17:38, "gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of Greg Aaron" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of gca at icginc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Is ICANN (or anyone else) responsible for protecting Spicer from himself? A lot of the articles about this subject point out that Spicer was neglectful and occasionally incompetent.
>>>
>>> Here are some facts to consider:
>>> * Privacy protection was available and Spicer didn’t obtain it. That was his choice.
>>> * Spicer agreed to have his data published in WHOIS. So that was either OK with him, or he didn't read the terms of service in his domain registration agreement. Either way, it was his choice.
>>> * Spicer tweeted out his own Twitter password. He's responsible for that.
>>> * Spicer himself published his email address in many, many public places over the years. A simple Google search will tell you what his email address was.
>>> * Those data breaches that Volker mentions have nothing to do with domain registration data. They did not reveal domain registration data. Domain registration data didn't allow hackers to penetrate Dropbox, LinkedIn, and MySpace, and the other places where Spicer's credentials were lost over the years. Bad corporate security allowed those breaches to happen.
>>> * Spicer has a very different risk profile than the average person. He's been a prominent PR and political operative for many years (and is now working for the most scrutinized entity in the world). A key tenet of risk assessment is that exceptional cases may not justify making rules that affect everyone.
>>>
>>> All best,
>>> --Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 4:28 AM
>>> To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> Subject: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
>>>
>>> As we tend to get lost in the thick and nitty gritty from time to time, this recent article should remind us what we are working for:
>>>
>>> mashable.com/2017/02/07/sean-spicer-who-is
>>>
>>> also here:
>>>
>>> http://domainnamewire.com/2017/02/08/sean-spicer-brings-attention-wh
>>> ois-privacy/
>>>
>>> While it could not have hit a nicer guy, he completely and accurately followed policy and look where it lead. Hi private address and telephone number as well as email address known to the world, other domains he registered for himself and his family published, etc. As his email address was compromised in no less than three leaks (plus one honorable mention on Wikileaks), and he recently tweeted his password, it may even be possible to dig deeper.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps remind folks that getting private data out of the public view is a good thing.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>
>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
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>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - legal department -
>>>
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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>> --
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>> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
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>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:
> vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
>
> Web:
> www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /
> www.BrandShelter.com
>
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.:
> DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu
>
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:
> vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
>
> Web:
> www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /
> www.BrandShelter.com
>
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu
>
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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