[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Mon Feb 13 10:47:03 UTC 2017
I do not dispute that there may be benefits that come from public
access, yet just having a benefit from something does not entitle one to
have that access.
Ultimately we should ask the following question:
"Who has a legal right to access such information, and what is the
normal process (subpoena, criminal investigation etc) to gain such access."
Only after we asked and answered this question should we look into
whether there could or should be different venues for access, for whom
and why.
Best,
Volker
Am 10.02.2017 um 20:14 schrieb John Horton:
> Yep. Agreed with Greg. There's a lot of gain from thick Whois being
> publicly available, sometimes even if it's privacy protected (to a
> much more limited degree, of course). For example, we work with
> payment providers and banks to screen and monitor e-commerce merchants
> for a variety of bad stuff, and there are many cases where the
> availability of the thick Whois is what enables a payment provider to
> detect and prevent a range of undesirable activity such as money
> laundering and consumer fraud -- ideally, before it happens. And the
> ability to reverse query against the entire domain name set is part of
> what's critical there, so that you can see what else the merchant is
> really engaged in, which can range from child pornography to illegal
> gambling, fake medicines, designer drugs, fraudulent payday or other
> loans, and a whole lot more. The reason that thick Whois is really
> helpful is that the bad merchant often tried to hide behind another
> type of innocuous e-commerce. While there are other tools in the tool
> kit too, thick Whois availability some really important applications
> and there are countless cases where the ability to reverse query a
> merchant's Whois record against the entire universe of domain names is
> the sole reason we detected and/or prevented illegal or fraudulent
> activity. In some cases, we or the payment provider require the
> merchant to remove the privacy-protected Whois and have accurate
> information in the Whois, which contributes to deterrence.
>
> Not saying we don't need balance, of course, but I wanted to present
> not only this other use case but to push back that there isn't
> commensurate "gain" in some very important respects -- how a
> restrictive policy on thick Whois would effect e-commerce from the
> compliance perspective is an important consideration that I don't
> think has been discussed with the same level of attention as privacy
> considerations, and I think both are important. As to only allowing
> this to someone who has a verified and legitimate purpose (that is, if
> you concur that underwriting and monitoring e-commerce merchants on
> behalf of banks is a legitimate purpose) to access thick Whois, keep
> in mind I personally taught myself how to investigate cybercrime while
> unemployed and sitting in a coffee shop day after day. I probably
> wouldn't have met the test as an unshaven guy without a job or any
> money. So it's also reasonable to consider what sorts of innovation
> and business development are stifled from limiting access to thick Whois.
>
> John Horton
> President and CEO, LegitScript
>
>
> *FollowLegitScript*: LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com> | Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript> | Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/legitscript> | _Blog
> <http://blog.legitscript.com>_ |Google+
> <https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com
> <mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Sam:
>
> To answer your question, here are some areas of "fat" disclosure
> that quickly come to mind:
>
> -- Real property ownership
> -- Intellectual property ownership (registration)
> -- Corporate contact information
>
> Development is only one of many goals that need to be kept in
> mind, and I'm not even sure it's an "official" one for ICANN.
> Consumer trust and safety are clearly enhanced by public WHOIS/RDS
> access. I believe that security, stability and resiliency are as
> well.
>
> If you have no purpose for access to WHOIS/RDS access, it's easy
> to say that "Anything other than a minimalist "thin" will be a
> source of endless pain, and for no gain." First, we've already
> had thick access for a very long time, and I can certainly say
> there is plenty of "gain" from a lot of different purposes. If
> there was no "pain," we probably wouldn't be having this
> conversation, but there are a number of ways to deal with that
> "pain" -- and we have to be as careful and fact-based about what
> the pain is as we are about the purposes for collection and
> disclosure are.
>
> Greg Shatan
>
> *Greg Shatan
> *C: 917-816-6428 <tel:%28917%29%20816-6428>
> S: gsshatan
> gregshatanipc at gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 12:34 PM, sam at lanfranco.net
> <mailto:sam at lanfranco.net> <sam at lanfranco.net
> <mailto:sam at lanfranco.net>> wrote:
>
> This difference of opinion is the crucial fork in the road
> here. Name one other sector, industry, or activity where "fat"
> disclosure takes place, or where "thin" disclosure harmed
> development. Anything other than a minimalist "thin" will be a
> source of endless pain, and for no gain.
>
> Sam L.
>
> Sent from my Huawei Mobile
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
> From: Volker Greimann
> To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> CC:
>
>
> This illustrates the basic difference of opinion:
>
> Proposal: By not allowing the flow of WHOIS data for
> anything but purposes backed by legal rights to that
> information or required for the technical operation of the
> internet
>
> 1) We will strengthen the rights to private data against
> anyone desiring to abuse that data by claiming to have
> some ephemeral purpose to access that data
>
> 2) The internet economy will likely not be affected
>
> 3) By defining restrictive access requirements, we will
> still enable legitimate cases where access to such data is
> needed
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
>
> Am 10.02.2017 um 17:11 schrieb nathalie coupet via
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>> Proposal: By allowing the flow of WHOIS data to enable as
>> many legitimate activites as possible througout the root
>> and main branches of the tree:
>> 1) we will strengthen the Internet by providing
>> peripheral purposes that protect the medium (consumer
>> protection, research,...)
>> 2) we will protect the Internet economy as much as possible
>> 3) by increasing granularity, we can tackle edge cases at
>> the edge.
>> Nathalie
>>
>>
>> On Friday, February 10, 2017 11:01 AM, Victoria Sheckler
>> <vsheckler at riaa.com> <mailto:vsheckler at riaa.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> We need to find balance and a constructive way to propose
>> solutions, not this endless back and forth of edge cases.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of
>> benny at nordreg.se <mailto:benny at nordreg.se>
>> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 4:44 AM
>> To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
>> Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
>>
>> +1 to Volker
>>
>> Spot on, we cant let the criminals endanger all innocents
>> life by default expose data as we do today
>>
>> --
>> Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
>>
>> Benny Samuelsen
>> Registry Manager - Domainexpert
>>
>> Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
>> IANA-ID: 638
>> Phone: +46.42197080 <tel:+46%2042%2019%2070%2080>
>> Direct: +47.32260201 <tel:+47%2032%2026%2002%2001>
>> Mobile: +47.40410200 <tel:+47%20404%2010%20200>
>>
>> > On 10 Feb 2017, at 10:41, Volker Greimann
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Pivoting off domain whois is my #1 valued resource in
>> cybercrime investigations.
>> > Judging from the amount of abuse and spam out there, it
>> is also the #1 valued resource of spammers, cyber
>> criminals, nigerian princes, domain slammers ,etc etc.
>> >
>> > And that leads to the question: Is it really worth
>> giving up the private data of all registrants to whoever
>> wants it just to catch a few bad guys?
>> > And to answer that: I'd rather see a few criminals
>> uncaught if that means the innocent majority will be that
>> much less at risk to be victimized.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Volker
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 12:16 PM, benny at nordreg.se
>> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se> <benny at nordreg.se
>> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se>> wrote:
>> >> Dnsservers, domainstatus, various dates, Registrar
>> >>
>> >> None of these data are personal data imo
>> >>
>> >> The only info you see in Whois are the contact ID the
>> user have at
>> >> the registrar/ registry
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>
>> >> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:10, nathalie coupet
>> <nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Benny,
>> >>>
>> >>> All personal info on personal domains are hidden by
>> default. What are the info that remain available for
>> public view - after personal information have been hidden
>> by default - which still enable technical operability?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Nathalie
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thursday, February 9, 2017 11:46 AM,
>> "benny at nordreg.se <mailto:benny at nordreg.se>"
>> <benny at nordreg.se <mailto:benny at nordreg.se>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Maybe not but there are nothing who prevent us from
>> trying to protect people from there mistakes and
>> stupidity and still be able to have certain level of
>> technical operability with whois data.
>> >>>
>> >>> A good example are .se which have a whois policy
>> where all personal info on personal domains are hidden by
>> default. The registrant need to opt out of the privacy
>> actively by making a decision. That might be the way we
>> should think instead of what to do to hide data.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig
>> hilsen
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Benny Samuelsen
>> >>> Registry Manager - Domainexpert
>> >>>
>> >>> Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
>> >>> IANA-ID: 638
>> >>>
>> >>> Phone: +46.42197080 <tel:+46%2042%2019%2070%2080>
>> >>> Direct: +47.32260201 <tel:+47%2032%2026%2002%2001>
>> >>> Mobile: +47.40410200 <tel:+47%20404%2010%20200>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 09/02/2017, 17:38,
>> "gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of
>> Greg Aaron" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of
>> gca at icginc.com <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Is ICANN (or anyone else) responsible for
>> protecting Spicer from himself? A lot of the articles
>> about this subject point out that Spicer was neglectful
>> and occasionally incompetent.
>> >>>
>> >>> Here are some facts to consider:
>> >>> * Privacy protection was available and Spicer
>> didn’t obtain it. That was his choice.
>> >>> * Spicer agreed to have his data published in
>> WHOIS. So that was either OK with him, or he didn't read
>> the terms of service in his domain registration
>> agreement. Either way, it was his choice.
>> >>> * Spicer tweeted out his own Twitter password.
>> He's responsible for that.
>> >>> * Spicer himself published his email address in
>> many, many public places over the years. A simple Google
>> search will tell you what his email address was.
>> >>> * Those data breaches that Volker mentions have
>> nothing to do with domain registration data. They did
>> not reveal domain registration data. Domain registration
>> data didn't allow hackers to penetrate Dropbox, LinkedIn,
>> and MySpace, and the other places where Spicer's
>> credentials were lost over the years. Bad corporate
>> security allowed those breaches to happen.
>> >>> * Spicer has a very different risk profile than
>> the average person. He's been a prominent PR and
>> political operative for many years (and is now working
>> for the most scrutinized entity in the world). A key
>> tenet of risk assessment is that exceptional cases may
>> not justify making rules that affect everyone.
>> >>>
>> >>> All best,
>> >>> --Greg
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of
>> Volker Greimann
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 4:28 AM
>> >>> To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> >>> Subject: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
>> >>>
>> >>> As we tend to get lost in the thick and nitty
>> gritty from time to time, this recent article should
>> remind us what we are working for:
>> >>>
>> >>> mashable.com/2017/02/07/sean-spicer-who-is
>> <http://mashable.com/2017/02/07/sean-spicer-who-is>
>> >>>
>> >>> also here:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://domainnamewire.com/2017/02/08/sean-spicer-brings-attention-wh
>> <http://domainnamewire.com/2017/02/08/sean-spicer-brings-attention-wh>
>> >>> ois-privacy/
>> >>>
>> >>> While it could not have hit a nicer guy, he
>> completely and accurately followed policy and look where
>> it lead. Hi private address and telephone number as well
>> as email address known to the world, other domains he
>> registered for himself and his family published, etc. As
>> his email address was compromised in no less than three
>> leaks (plus one honorable mention on Wikileaks), and he
>> recently tweeted his password, it may even be possible to
>> dig deeper.
>> >>>
>> >>> I hope this helps remind folks that getting
>> private data out of the public view is a good thing.
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>>
>> >>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur
>> Verfügung.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>> >>>
>> >>> Volker A. Greimann
>> >>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>> >>>
>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> >>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> >>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>> >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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>> >>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>> >>>
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>> >>>
>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH
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>> >> _________________________________
>> >> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >
>> > --
>> > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>> >
>> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>> >
>> > Volker A. Greimann
>> > - Rechtsabteilung -
>> >
>> > Key-Systems GmbH
>> > Im Oberen Werk 1
>> > 66386 St. Ingbert
>> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>> > Email:
>> > vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> > Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.:
>> > DE211006534
>> >
>> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
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>> >
>> >
>> > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für
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>> sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu
>> setzen.
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Should you have any further questions, please do not
>> hesitate to contact us.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Volker A. Greimann
>> > - legal department -
>> >
>> > Key-Systems GmbH
>> > Im Oberen Werk 1
>> > 66386 St. Ingbert
>> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>> > Email:
>> > vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>> >
>> >
>> > Web:
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>> www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /
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>> >
>> >
>> > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on
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>> >
>> >
>> > CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.:
>> DE211006534
>> >
>> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> >
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>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
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>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>
> _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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