[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Tue Feb 14 17:22:34 UTC 2017
Hi John,
indeed, stricter data protection laws, court decisions or a different
appreciation of the need of users to be protected from abuse of their
private data may dictate stricter handling in the future. I hope you are
not arguing against allowing for such changes?
Best,
Volker
Am 14.02.2017 um 18:18 schrieb John Horton:
> Hi Benny,
>
> Let me try to dig into that a little bit with a serious question. What
> assurance do those of us engaged in cybercrime investigation -- or not
> yet created organizations that are legitimate -- have that we would
> have the same level of access in the future? Is it possible for this
> group to make that assurance? To be sure, this isn't my only concern
> or objection, but part of what I'm trying to get at is: even if those
> of us on this working group were to agree that cybercrime-mitigation
> entities should have the same access we have today, what's to prevent
> a stricter regime from changing the rules in the future? In other
> words, if we create a system that empowers one central organization to
> say that Allison's reasons (for example) are valid now, there's
> nothing to prevent that organization from deciding to block her in the
> future because they don't believe her reasons for investigating
> cybercrime are valid. Put another way, my concern isn't that you
> personally or anyone on this group wants to block cybercrime
> mitigation from happening -- rather, I'm wondering how this group
> could bind a future RDS 1, 5 or 10 years down the road not to change
> the goalposts.
>
> John Horton
> President and CEO, LegitScript
>
>
> *FollowLegitScript*: LinkedIn
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>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 9:05 AM, benny at nordreg.se
> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se> <benny at nordreg.se <mailto:benny at nordreg.se>>
> wrote:
>
> Well it might be so, but every singel person “claiming” they use
> whois for investigation seems to lack the understanding that they
> will get the access it will just be a little harder to get the
> normal misuse of whois info can be prevented but looks like noen
> of you want that to happen...
>
> --
> Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
>
> Benny Samuelsen
> Registry Manager - Domainexpert
>
> Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
> IANA-ID: 638
> Phone: +46.42197080 <tel:%2B46.42197080>
> Direct: +47.32260201 <tel:%2B47.32260201>
> Mobile: +47.40410200 <tel:%2B47.40410200>
>
> > On 14 Feb 2017, at 17:58, allison nixon <elsakoo at gmail.com
> <mailto:elsakoo at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Benny, dude, you just wrote "Buhu my work will get harder", so
> please don't complain about adult and mature answers
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:56 AM, benny at nordreg.se
> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se> <benny at nordreg.se
> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se>> wrote:
> > A very adult and mature answer… with some nice baked in threats,
> funny its only your kind of crimes which matter apparantly… oh and
> the final on which always are been draged out when there are no
> more arguments, think about the one child we can save…
> >
> > To answer your questions hidden in the threats, yes you are part
> of the better for all but that also means everyone have to give
> and take to come to a better solution.
> > In you ignorance you completely miss the point that by have all
> these data public there are commited crimes every minut by using
> those data nut hey what does that matter as long as you business
> can roll on… I guess those people will thank you for you helpful
> insights…
> >
> > Welcome to the discussion
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
> >
> > Benny Samuelsen
> > Registry Manager - Domainexpert
> >
> > Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
> > IANA-ID: 638
> > Phone: +46.42197080 <tel:%2B46.42197080>
> > Direct: +47.32260201 <tel:%2B47.32260201>
> > Mobile: +47.40410200 <tel:%2B47.40410200>
> >
> > > On 14 Feb 2017, at 17:29, John Bambenek
> <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com <mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Let me translate Allison's comments in the light of your mockery.
> > >
> > > You're ideas of privacy are patently absurd and your arrogance
> that entire industries need to rewrite how they do things to suit
> your effete and fantastical notions is breathtaking. Your mockery
> of people who investigate crime is just icing on the cake. Its not
> a question of looking past your own walls, its a question of
> whether you religious fanatics can acknowledge that other use
> cases are valid (or are we not part of the "all" in "better for
> all"). Are you really suggesting preventing spam is a higher
> priority than stopping human trafficking online?
> > >
> > > If someone who had need of privacy came to me for advice on
> registering a domain name I would tell them absolutely not to do
> it. Use blogspot or any other mechanism that doesn't involve a
> financial transaction to shield your privacy. Creating paper
> trails is always a poor life decision when OPSEC matters. Anything
> less and I would stop taking your concerns seriously.
> > >
> > > That said, we have a viable compromise, its called whois
> privacy protection. And it allows me to use risk based decisions
> on how I treat traffic to such domains.
> > >
> > > But if you wish to enable criminals to better hide so they can
> steal people's life savings, so they can anonymously traffic in
> child exploitation or to engage in sextortion against teenage
> girls all because you can't handle a spam filter, you can count me
> one that will line up against you and very publicly label you an
> enabler of child sexual exploitation. Then I will go to Congress,
> drag ICANN back under the Department of Commerce and ensure some
> adult supervision is had.
> > >
> > > Or you can calm the hell down and knock it off with your
> attitude and we can find a viable middle ground. Totally your call.
> > >
> > > And if you are really concerned about spammers, I help run
> investigations against them too (using whois data, in part) and
> could totally use the help.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > >> On Feb 14, 2017, at 05:28, "benny at nordreg.se
> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se>" <benny at nordreg.se
> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> So basicaly what you say are… Buhu my work will get harder,
> let all innocent registrants suffer from spam/scam mail sprung out
> of the whois data published, all those registrants who get fake
> mails about renewing there domain or buying fake SEO plans?
> > >> How can anyone defend that we have data published to get
> abused just because some bad guys registrer domains? And those of
> you who does will still have access to the date just not in the
> same easy way…
> > >>
> > >> Sorry for my harsh tone but I really don’t see why we cant
> look past our own walls and find a solution which are to the
> better for all..
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
> > >>
> > >> Benny Samuelsen
> > >> Registry Manager - Domainexpert
> > >>
> > >> Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
> > >> IANA-ID: 638
> > >> Phone: +46.42197080 <tel:%2B46.42197080>
> > >> Direct: +47.32260201 <tel:%2B47.32260201>
> > >> Mobile: +47.40410200 <tel:%2B47.40410200>
> > >>
> > >>> On 14 Feb 2017, at 06:38, allison nixon <elsakoo at gmail.com
> <mailto:elsakoo at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> This car metaphor isn't complete without also stating that
> some car owners purchase them for the sole purpose of running over
> people!
> > >>>
> > >>> Some car owners purchase fleets of cars to run over as many
> people as possible. Even though they re-use their name on every
> single vehicle registration, the subpeona takes so long that the
> city can no longer automatically block the cars as they enter, and
> need to wait for them to run over a few people before they can do
> anything about it.
> > >>>
> > >>> This metaphor has obviously been tortured past the point of
> absurdity, I'll leave it alone now.
> > >>>
> > >>> I've mostly been lurking for the whole duration of this
> group, and please forgive me if I'm missing something massive
> here, but I get the impression that most people here don't spend a
> lot of time doing investigations. But this is my life. If I needed
> a subpeona for every single historical lookup, pivot, and reverse
> search, I would get zero done due to a lack of legal authority.
> Many if not most of the people doing the heavy lifting in
> anti-cybercrime efforts are private citizens with no government
> issued authority. It seems that the general expectation here is
> that limiting access to people with badges is OK, but I'm telling
> you there is a severe lack of those skillsets and it will be years
> before we see widespread technical literacy among the police.
> Whatever system results, private citizens need a path for
> unrestricted and automated access. And if we want to talk
> protecting privacy, I think criminally motivated violations of
> privacy are far more likely to affect everyone's day to day life
> right now, and automated WHOIS lookups are used heavily especially
> in anti-phishing and anti-spam operations.
> > >>>
> > >>> With the status quo, I can go on fishing expeditions through
> the WHOIS data and turn up hundreds of domains used for the same
> type of malicious activity, and predict with a high accuracy which
> domains will be malicious before they are used for anything. It
> sometimes turns up domains owned by innocent people, and I doubt
> privacy minded people would like that, but the reality is I rarely
> ever encounter WHOIS data that is convincing PII. It's almost all
> fake. And if it's not fake, it's a company's public contact info,
> or it's a foolish person who turned down WHOIS privacy protection,
> and will change their WHOIS as soon as the spam starts flowing.
> > >>>
> > >>> Have there been any studies on what percentage of WHOIS data
> is real and correct? Can we ever expect to have meaningful data
> when registrars are allowed to take Bitcoins over Tor as payment?
> At what point does "privacy" become an empty argument when some of
> these Internet hosting/registrar companies clearly profit from
> facilitating abuse, and network defenders block entire TLDs due to
> the saturation of abuse?
> > >>>
> > >>> From my vantage point, I see great benefit from seeing
> patterns in the fake data submitted by fraudsters, and I see few
> harms from the privacy side of things, because people seem to
> generally realize that "123 fake st" is a perfectly acceptable
> WHOIS entry.
> > >>>
> > >>> I also recognize this situation is completely absurd. Every
> aspect of this is surely an abuse of the original system. But it
> seems like building a pyramid from the top down, restricting
> access to supposed "PII" that is unlikely to contain PII, to the
> detriment of legitimate efforts that also seek to enhance privacy
> by preventing criminal theft of private data like bank account
> numbers.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Sam Lanfranco
> <sam at lanfranco.net <mailto:sam at lanfranco.net>> wrote:
> > >>> I have to strongly agree with Alex that whatever the
> criteria are for thin data, they cannot include that thin data "is
> transitive" in some sort of bread crumb trail manner.
> > >>>
> > >>> Everything is potentially transitive in that sense. I
> observe a vehicle but all I get is make, model and license plate,
> and in most jurisdictions that is all I get. It is the vehicle
> owner's "thin data". Of course I can hang around, see that the car
> has a baby seat, witness a woman or man putting a child in the
> car, assume that she/he has legitimate access to the car, follow
> the car and assemble more personal information (lives at; works
> at; shops at; visits;) The license plate didn't facilitate that
> crumb train discovery, but no license plate would hamper
> legitimate seeking of information about who owns the car (issuing
> a parking ticket, LEA investigation, etc.) . License plate is part
> of thin data with no gated access. Of course, this will change in
> the era of the digital vehicle. Depending on security, and
> authorization, one will be able to just ask the car, and ask about
> a lot of things...like whose cell phone was in the passenger's
> seat last night, when I was supposed to be alone )-:
> > >>>
> > >>> There needs to be a similar balance (license plate but no
> owner's name unless wanted, like Sam's Curry Pizza Barn logo,
> phone number and website URL painted on the side).
> > >>>
> > >>> More Important, have we made progress (convergence) on the
> working principles that should be brought to bear in building a
> thin data set. A lot of time has been spent looking at good case
> and bad case scenarios. What operational principles have been
> distilled from all these examples? What is the balance between
> thin data inclusion and exclusion, and design and technical
> solutions that can be used to prevent (for example) robotic
> harvesting? There is another frontier here, and that is what
> governments will do to restrain or enable certain uses of thin
> data? While ICANN needs to be aware of what is going on there,
> that part is beyond ICANN's remit, but those policies will help
> shape some of the context within which ICANN deals with the thin
> data task.
> > >>>
> > >>> Sam L
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 2017-02-14 1:23 AM, Deacon, Alex wrote:
> > >>> All,
> > >>>
> > >>> So it seems the debate has progressed from “thin data” to
> “thick data” (i.e. data that includes email). I know we are all
> super excited to talk about “thick data” but I don’t think we are
> there yet (are we? Hopefully I didn’t miss the party…)
> > >>>
> > >>> Focusing on thin data for the moment I struggle to
> understand how it is personal data. I do not believe it is. As
> for the odd logic proposed by some that the property of privacy is
> transitive (i.e. Because “thin data” can be used to
> link/point/discover other data then “thin data” equals “personal
> data”) I just don’t buy it.
> > >>>
> > >>> I don’t disagree with much of what was expressed in this
> thread, however we must keep in mind that balance and
> proportionality are important concepts in many (all?) data privacy
> laws. Any arguments that imply that no such balance exists (or
> should exist) is obstructive IMO.
> > >>>
> > >>> Alex
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 2/13/17, 5:42 AM, <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of
> michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> I agree and I know from how I’ve used various email
> addresses that they are actively being harvested and spammed.
> > >>> Also it’s one of the biggest sources of complaints
> we get from our clients (registrants)
> > >>> It’s definitely not an “edge case”.
> > >>> Regards
> > >>> Michele
> > >>> --
> > >>> Mr Michele Neylon
> > >>> Blacknight Solutions
> > >>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
> > >>> https://www.blacknight.com/
> > >>> http://blacknight.blog/
> > >>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
> <tel:%2B353%20%280%29%2059%209183072>
> > >>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> <tel:%2B353%20%280%2959%209183090>
> > >>> Social: http://mneylon.social
> > >>> Some thoughts: http://ceo.hosting/
> > >>> -------------------------------
> > >>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
> Business Park,Sleaty
> > >>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.:
> 370845
> > >>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> *--------------------------------------------*
> > >>> "It is a disgrace to be rich and honoured
> > >>> in an unjust state" -Confucius
> > >>> ----------------------------------------------
> > >>> Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus & Senior Scholar)
> > >>> Econ, York U., Toronto, Ontario, CANADA - M3J 1P3
> > >>> YorkU email: Lanfran at Yorku.ca Skype: slanfranco
> > >>> blog: http://samlanfranco.blogspot.com
> <http://samlanfranco.blogspot.com>
> > >>> Phone: 613 476-0429 <tel:613%20476-0429> cell: 416-816-2852
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> _________________________________
> > >>> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > --
> > _________________________________
> > Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
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