[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Who is in charge? (was Re: Why the thin data is necessary)]

Paul Keating Paul at law.es
Mon Jun 12 11:57:13 UTC 2017 

Im sorry but I am at a total loss here.

We started by discussing ³public access² to ³Thin Data²  The conversation
got bogged down on the issue of whether the TD   would be accessible on an
anonymous and unrestrained basis.

Then we embarked on finding a new term to replace Thin Data.  I believe we
agreed on ³Public Data"

Now we appear to be dealing with what is to be included in Public Data.

How is this premature?

We need to review all of the data elements and determine which will be in
the Public Data set (anonymous and unrestrained access) and which will be in
any other data set and subject to as-yet-to-be determined restrictions.

I cannot see any other way of dealing with the matter.

Paul

From:  <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of "Metalitz, Steven"
<met at msk.com>
Date:  Friday, June 9, 2017 at 9:58 PM
To:  'Greg Aaron' <gca at icginc.com>, Lisa Phifer <lisa at corecom.com>, "Gomes,
Chuck" <cgomes at verisign.com>, "alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca"
<alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>, "ajs at anvilwalrusden.com"
<ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>, "gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org"
<gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject:  Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Who is in charge? (was Re: Why the thin data
is necessary)]

> I agree with Greg¹s point below and caution that the final question in  this
> week¹s poll seems to be asking WG members to propose an exhaustive list of all
> data elements that would be included in the ³public data set ² as we currently
> seem to be calling it.    This is at best quite premature since we have not
> even discussed the vast majority of data elements that form part of the
> today¹s ³public data set,² in order to decide whether or not they should
> remain in that status, to say nothing of considering additional possible data
> elements.   
>  
> 
>  
> Steve Metalitz
> 
> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Greg Aaron
> Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 8:11 AM
> To: Lisa Phifer; Gomes, Chuck; alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca;
> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com; gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Who is in charge? (was Re: Why the thin data is
> necessary)]
>  
> We must be careful to understand that what might be in a "public data set" has
> not yet been determined and may change as we continue discussion. The "public
> data set" will probably include at a minimum everything in the traditional
> thin data set, but may also include other fields. For all we know, we might
> decide that it will contain all fields that are currently published in WHOIS.
> 
> So: "thin data" does not correspond exactly to "Public data set", at least not
> yet. The use of "public" does not mean that everything or anything else that
> is not in thin data should necessarily be gated or private.
> 
> All best,
> --Greg
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Lisa Phifer
> Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2017 8:27 PM
> To: Gomes, Chuck <cgomes at verisign.com>; alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca;
> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com; gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Who is in charge? (was Re: Why the thin data is
> necessary)]
> 
> The EWG defined a minimum public data set. This group may not like "minimum"
> but "public data set" seems less controversial?
> 
> Lisa
> 
> At 06:12 PM 6/8/2017, Gomes, Chuck via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
>> >Thanks Alan. Does anyone have a suggestion different than 'ungated
>> elements'?
>> >
>> >Chuck
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Alan Greenberg [mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca]
>> >Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2017 7:09 PM
>> >To: Gomes, Chuck <cgomes at verisign.com>; ajs at anvilwalrusden.com;
>> >gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> >Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Who is in charge? (was Re:
>> >Why the thin data is necessary)]
>> >
>> >Chuck, I really think it is bad choice to call the set of elements that
>> >can be accesses without restriction "thin". Thin is an accepted and
>> >understood term in relation to Whois and is the set of data elements
>> >maintained (and displayed) by the .com, net and jobs registries. It is
>> >well documented. See
>> >https://whois.icann.org/en/what-are-thick-and-thin-entries,
>> >https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/thick-whois-2016-06-27-en and
>> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHOIS#Thin_and_thick_lookups.
>> >
>> >To use this same term to define a potentially different set of elements
>> >will only lead to confusion. It certainly did for me on this week's
>> >call!
>> >
>> >No matter what disclaimers we put in any document saying we are using
>> >the term "thin Whois elements" to refer to a different group than is
>> >currently used in the existing thin Whois displays many people will
>> >take it differently.
>> >
>> >Can we please use some other expression: ungated elements;
>> >freebee-Whois; or Whifflefarbs. But not one that already has a
>> >different meaning!
>> >
>> >Alan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >At 08/06/2017 04:59 PM, Gomes, Chuck via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
>>> > >Like much of the discussion over the last 24 hours +, I think we are
>>> > >getting ahead of ourselves. If and when we propose gated access for
>>> > >any
>>> > >(thick) data elements, we will consider the EWG recommendation of
>>> > >some form of accreditation for those who would be granted access to
>>> > >those elements. In the meantime, I suggest that we focus on the main
>>> > >topic of the week (and the poll), which is what elements should be
>>> > >defined as thin. Contributions to help us reach conclusion on that
>>> > >are most welcome and I sincerely thank those of you already but some
>>> > >very good comments in that regard.
>>> > >
>>> > >Chuck
>>> > >
>>> > >-----Original Message-----
>>> > >From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>> > >[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Andrew
>>> > >Sullivan
>>> > >Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2017 12:53 PM
>>> > >To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> > >Subject: [EXTERNAL] [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Who is in charge? (was Re: Why
>>> > >the thin data is necessary)]
>>> > >
>>> > >Hi,
>>> > >
>>> > >On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 10:55:19AM -0400, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>>>> > > > These are excellent questions. I would add an additional one:
>>>> > > > why are private cybercrime investigators not accredited? How can
>>>> > > > the global public trust them, or perhaps why?
>>> > >
>>> > >The above question implies a deep misunderstanding of the nature of
>>> > >the Internet.
>>> > >
>>> > >As Phill Hallam-Baker[1] said once, "On the Internet, you are so not
>>> > >in charge for every value of 'you'." The reason that Internet
>>> > >private cybercrime investigators are not accredited is the same
>>> > >reason that Internet policy people are not accredited, Internet
>>> > >technical contributors are not accredited, Internet e-commerce site
>>> > >operators are not accredited, and Internet private fans of dressing
>>> > >up as furry creatures are not accredited. In a network of networks,
>>> > >there is no centre of control because there is _no centre_. Since
>>> > >there is no centre of control on the Internet, accreditation in the
>>> > >generic sense above is completely meaningless.
>>> > >
>>> > >The way things on the Internet work is _voluntary_ interconnection,
>>> > >which means that you're a "private cybercrime investigator" if people
>>> > >who have real legal authority in real legal jurisdictions decide to
>>> > >rely on and work with your investigations. You're an ISP if people
>>> > >decide to use your service provisioning to connect to the Internet.
>>> > >And so on.
>>> > >
>>> > >The idea that there is anyone in a position to accredit someone else
>>> > >for a generic Internet job completely misses the way the Internet
>>> > >actually functions. ICANN today can accredit registrars and
>>> > >registries (and therefore make policies about RDS) because people
>>> > >agree to let ICANN do this, because it's doing it now and it's hard to
>>> change that.
>>> > >But if ICANN proves to be too useless for the rest of the Internet
>>> > >(because, to take an imaginary case, the community around ICANN
>>> > >thinks it is Boss of da Internetz and so can make rules that break
>>> > >operational reality without any apparent operational benefit), then
>>> > >its role in IANA registries will simply be usurped by others, and
>>> > >people will ignore the ICANN registrars and registries and everything
>>> > >like that. I certainly hope we never get there, because it would be
>>> > >really painful and bad for the Internet. But it is certainly
>>> > >possible. ICANN has no power independent of the agreement of
>>> > >everyone to use the ICANN policies for the IANA
>>> > > DNS root. Ask MySpace or the authors of Gopher whether there are
>>> > >any permanent favourites on the Internet.
>>> > >
>>> > >Best regards,
>>> > >
>>> > >A
>>> > >
>>> > >[1] of all people
>>> > >
>>> > >--
>>> > >Andrew Sullivan
>>> > >ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
>>> > >_______________________________________________
>>> > >gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>> > >gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> > >https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> > >_______________________________________________
>>> > >gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>> > >gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> > >https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> >gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> >https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> 
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