[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data
Gomes, Chuck
cgomes at verisign.com
Mon Mar 6 20:42:03 UTC 2017
I think that an argument can be judged on its merits regardless of it’s source.
Chuck
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2017 12:37 PM
To: allison nixon <elsakoo at gmail.com>
Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data
Whether a particular use is legitimate or not may depend on the viewpoint. I do not doubt there is a lot of legitimate use of the data. Whether the publication of the data is legitimate is another issue though.
And yes, no one yet knows how a future system would look and work, that was kind of my point. LEAs, by making this statement at this time either know more than we do or are using hyperbole to further their agenda. Which is completely legitimate, but should be understood as such. Hence my argument that the source matters when looking at the argument.
Best,
Volker
Am 06.03.2017 um 18:12 schrieb allison nixon:
>>Limit or impede? Probably, but cripple and eliminate? Pure hyperbole and fearmongering, especially as they do not even know how access would be regulated and structured.
Well, nobody knows how access would be regulated and structured since it hasnt been decided yet. Also, it's not hyperbole or fearmongering, it's correct. WHOIS is used in a large number of systems being used on a daily basis. More people who use these systems should speak up in this group, because the people here don't seem to know how the legitimate use of WHOIS is structured.
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:56 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
I was outlining an opposite extreme, not comparing.
As to the percentage of fact in the statement, I cannot comment, but I doubt that a "restriction of easy fluid access" to registration data would "severely cripple or eliminate the ability" of LEAs "to conduct investigation in a timely manner".
Limit or impede? Probably, but cripple and eliminate? Pure hyperbole and fearmongering, especially as they do not even know how access would be regulated and structured.
Best,
Volker
Am 06.03.2017 um 17:45 schrieb allison nixon:
Interesting that some here consider law enforcement to be on the same tier of legitimacy as "cybercriminals and torrent site operators".
Very interesting.
By the way, IACP's statement is 100% factual with regard to how WHOIS is used and the harms that will happen when it is taken away.
More investigators need to join this group, which badly needs some doses of reality.
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
So why don't ICANN strip the identity from the sender from statements to a working group? Anonymous statements would be the logical consequence of only looking at the argument and not at the source, would it not?
Best,
Volker
Am 06.03.2017 um 17:20 schrieb Andrew Sullivan:
On Mon, Mar 06, 2017 at 04:33:02PM +0100, Volker Greimann wrote:
the source. If we were to receive a statement from cybercriminals and
torrent site operators, our reception of the arguments and content of the
message would be colored by the source as well, wouldn't it?
I am not asing to discount the message, I am just saying do not seperate the
message from the sender.
I'm extremely uncomfortable with the above premise, and I think it's
important to make clear why.
One model of ICANN policy making is that it simply balances among
interests. The interests are (1) those that show up and (2) those
that we somehow decide are "legitimate". The problem with this model
is that it is deeply political. The interests who "show up" are the
ones who can get funding, and there is incentive to try to
delegitimize some other interest. There is a basis for interpreting
ICANN's approach this way, because of the constituency model and the
way that people identify as part of this or that group. In this
model, there is no reason for a given stakeholder or stakeholder group
should in any way acknowledge or argue for positions outside their
parochial concern, because if someone else wants that issue to be
considered he or she should similarly attempt to participate. One
advantage of this model is that it is familiar from other kinds of
political environments: it emphasises the "stakeholder" part of
multi-stakeholder.
A second model of ICANN policy making is that it attempts to bring in
as many different kinds of stakeholders as possible, not because these
are somehow representative of a position (the legitimacy of which is
to be determined), but because "more eyeballs make all bugs shallow".
That is, a diversity of views allows maximal exposure of the issues
with respect to a give policy problem, and so it is better to have
multiple kinds of viewpoints. Under this view, everyone should strive
to ensure that different viewpoints are taken into account, even if it
is only so as to say that a given view was taken into account but the
arguments for it were on balance not as strong as alternatives.
Constituencies under this view are a useful and convenient way to do
some early filtering, so that people with common sets of interests can
explore those common interests in depth without everyone in the world
needing to participate in every discussion. It is by definition not
possible to delegitimize a particular interest, though it is possible
to show that the arguments for that interest are on balance to be
rejected. An advantage of this model is that it discourages political
maneuvers in favour of greater discursive policy discussion: it
emphasises the "multi" part of multi-stakeholder.
Now, I don't really think that these are either mutually exclusive
options; neither do I think that we ever get out of either stance
completely. But the suggestion that we have to take the source into
consideration with the argument bothers me greatly. If the New
National-Socialist Stalinist Maoist Khmer Rouge and Social Credit
Party of Canada[1] came along and made an argument that certain kinds of
personally-identifying information in the RDS had negative effects, I
would expect us to take that argument seriously regardless of the
odiousness of the political stripe we found in their ideology.
The position of the Chiefs of Police interest group was that the
current prevailing policy regime should remain in place, because it is
convenient for them. Some of the convenience struck me as possibly
compelling and some of it less so. There was literally no new
information in their statement, however: every single one of those
arguments is already exposed in the materials we have amassed. And
no, I do not think that we should take the position more or less
seriously because it comes from a law enforcement lobby group -- any
more than I'd think that if it came from the FBI, the EFF, the
Regiment of Trademark Fencibles, or the Anti-Sony Collective of Evil
Genius File Sharers[2]. I'd prefer instead that we look at the
arguments, not their sources.
Best regards,
A
[1] Not an actual political party in Canada.
[2] Not all of these lobbies are real.
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Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<tel:+49%206894%209396901>
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net>
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Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
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www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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