[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] international law enforcement association resolution regarding domain registration data
John Bambenek
jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
Tue Mar 7 00:27:52 UTC 2017
This is an excellent point that I think we can agree on. We absolutely should consider the entities making suggestions and how their interests may be motivating their commentary.
For instance, I think discussing that some entities wishing to limit data flow also have a financial incentive to stymie investigators and thus maximize their revenue stream is one that needs further examination.
J
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 6, 2017, at 11:37, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>
> Whether a particular use is legitimate or not may depend on the viewpoint. I do not doubt there is a lot of legitimate use of the data. Whether the publication of the data is legitimate is another issue though.
>
> And yes, no one yet knows how a future system would look and work, that was kind of my point. LEAs, by making this statement at this time either know more than we do or are using hyperbole to further their agenda. Which is completely legitimate, but should be understood as such. Hence my argument that the source matters when looking at the argument.
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
>> Am 06.03.2017 um 18:12 schrieb allison nixon:
>> >>Limit or impede? Probably, but cripple and eliminate? Pure hyperbole and fearmongering, especially as they do not even know how access would be regulated and structured.
>>
>> Well, nobody knows how access would be regulated and structured since it hasnt been decided yet. Also, it's not hyperbole or fearmongering, it's correct. WHOIS is used in a large number of systems being used on a daily basis. More people who use these systems should speak up in this group, because the people here don't seem to know how the legitimate use of WHOIS is structured.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:56 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>>> I was outlining an opposite extreme, not comparing.
>>> As to the percentage of fact in the statement, I cannot comment, but I doubt that a "restriction of easy fluid access" to registration data would "severely cripple or eliminate the ability" of LEAs "to conduct investigation in a timely manner".
>>> Limit or impede? Probably, but cripple and eliminate? Pure hyperbole and fearmongering, especially as they do not even know how access would be regulated and structured.
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>> Am 06.03.2017 um 17:45 schrieb allison nixon:
>>>> Interesting that some here consider law enforcement to be on the same tier of legitimacy as "cybercriminals and torrent site operators".
>>>>
>>>> Very interesting.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, IACP's statement is 100% factual with regard to how WHOIS is used and the harms that will happen when it is taken away.
>>>>
>>>> More investigators need to join this group, which badly needs some doses of reality.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:37 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>>>>> So why don't ICANN strip the identity from the sender from statements to a working group? Anonymous statements would be the logical consequence of only looking at the argument and not at the source, would it not?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Volker
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 06.03.2017 um 17:20 schrieb Andrew Sullivan:
>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 06, 2017 at 04:33:02PM +0100, Volker Greimann wrote:
>>>>>>> the source. If we were to receive a statement from cybercriminals and
>>>>>>> torrent site operators, our reception of the arguments and content of the
>>>>>>> message would be colored by the source as well, wouldn't it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am not asing to discount the message, I am just saying do not seperate the
>>>>>>> message from the sender.
>>>>>> I'm extremely uncomfortable with the above premise, and I think it's
>>>>>> important to make clear why.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One model of ICANN policy making is that it simply balances among
>>>>>> interests. The interests are (1) those that show up and (2) those
>>>>>> that we somehow decide are "legitimate". The problem with this model
>>>>>> is that it is deeply political. The interests who "show up" are the
>>>>>> ones who can get funding, and there is incentive to try to
>>>>>> delegitimize some other interest. There is a basis for interpreting
>>>>>> ICANN's approach this way, because of the constituency model and the
>>>>>> way that people identify as part of this or that group. In this
>>>>>> model, there is no reason for a given stakeholder or stakeholder group
>>>>>> should in any way acknowledge or argue for positions outside their
>>>>>> parochial concern, because if someone else wants that issue to be
>>>>>> considered he or she should similarly attempt to participate. One
>>>>>> advantage of this model is that it is familiar from other kinds of
>>>>>> political environments: it emphasises the "stakeholder" part of
>>>>>> multi-stakeholder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A second model of ICANN policy making is that it attempts to bring in
>>>>>> as many different kinds of stakeholders as possible, not because these
>>>>>> are somehow representative of a position (the legitimacy of which is
>>>>>> to be determined), but because "more eyeballs make all bugs shallow".
>>>>>> That is, a diversity of views allows maximal exposure of the issues
>>>>>> with respect to a give policy problem, and so it is better to have
>>>>>> multiple kinds of viewpoints. Under this view, everyone should strive
>>>>>> to ensure that different viewpoints are taken into account, even if it
>>>>>> is only so as to say that a given view was taken into account but the
>>>>>> arguments for it were on balance not as strong as alternatives.
>>>>>> Constituencies under this view are a useful and convenient way to do
>>>>>> some early filtering, so that people with common sets of interests can
>>>>>> explore those common interests in depth without everyone in the world
>>>>>> needing to participate in every discussion. It is by definition not
>>>>>> possible to delegitimize a particular interest, though it is possible
>>>>>> to show that the arguments for that interest are on balance to be
>>>>>> rejected. An advantage of this model is that it discourages political
>>>>>> maneuvers in favour of greater discursive policy discussion: it
>>>>>> emphasises the "multi" part of multi-stakeholder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, I don't really think that these are either mutually exclusive
>>>>>> options; neither do I think that we ever get out of either stance
>>>>>> completely. But the suggestion that we have to take the source into
>>>>>> consideration with the argument bothers me greatly. If the New
>>>>>> National-Socialist Stalinist Maoist Khmer Rouge and Social Credit
>>>>>> Party of Canada[1] came along and made an argument that certain kinds of
>>>>>> personally-identifying information in the RDS had negative effects, I
>>>>>> would expect us to take that argument seriously regardless of the
>>>>>> odiousness of the political stripe we found in their ideology.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The position of the Chiefs of Police interest group was that the
>>>>>> current prevailing policy regime should remain in place, because it is
>>>>>> convenient for them. Some of the convenience struck me as possibly
>>>>>> compelling and some of it less so. There was literally no new
>>>>>> information in their statement, however: every single one of those
>>>>>> arguments is already exposed in the materials we have amassed. And
>>>>>> no, I do not think that we should take the position more or less
>>>>>> seriously because it comes from a law enforcement lobby group -- any
>>>>>> more than I'd think that if it came from the FBI, the EFF, the
>>>>>> Regiment of Trademark Fencibles, or the Anti-Sony Collective of Evil
>>>>>> Genius File Sharers[2]. I'd prefer instead that we look at the
>>>>>> arguments, not their sources.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] Not an actual political party in Canada.
>>>>>> [2] Not all of these lobbies are real.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>>
>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>>
>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
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>>>>>
>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
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>>>>>
>>>>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>>>>
>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>>> www.keydrive.lu
>>>>>
>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>> - legal department -
>>>>>
>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>>>
>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>>>>
>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>>> www.keydrive.lu
>>>>>
>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> _________________________________
>>>> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>
>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>
>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>>
>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>
>>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>>
>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>> www.keydrive.lu
>>>
>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - legal department -
>>>
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>
>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>>
>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>
>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>>
>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>> www.keydrive.lu
>>>
>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> _________________________________ Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
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