[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] a suggestion for "purpose in detail"

John Bambenek jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
Thu Mar 23 14:23:26 UTC 2017 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 23, 2017, at 09:08, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> Here we go again with the baseless allegations.
>>>> 
>>>> Whois is the rope with which bad actors hang themselves.
>>> Maybe dumb bad actors. Savvy bad actors just populate whois with data of unknowing third parties, thereby rendering any verification and validation instruments useless and inconveniencing the affected data subjects as well. 
>> 
>> I think maybe its best you let the people who do this work speak for the value of the information.  We're using it in criminal investigations and prosecutions.  You're just simply taking their money.
> Believe it or not, bad actors cost us money. We'd love to be able to "not to take their money" as it is a poisoned pill.
> And we see the whois data used by criminals all the time, when we look at the reports we are sent. Usually it is fake data ripped from some online database or the phone book.

So its a baseless allegation that investigators might have expertise in how they use this data? Only domain registrars who have a financial relationship with the criminals know how to use this data?

> 
>>>> For every piece of data that is already gathered under the most comprehensive WHOIS regime, there is a strong industry backed argument that the data needs to continue being collected, and for it to remain available. 
>>> Which industry? Not the domain industry. And when it comes to collection and handling of private data, our purposes for it is all that matters legally unless there is a requirement by law to collect and store.But in that case, compliance with local law would be the acceptable purpose.
>> 
>> Yes, you've made your position quite clear.  But ICANN nor this group is a trade association of registrars solely focused on maximizing your profits and minimizing your expenses and allowing you to dump all the risk on society at large.  But there are other voices here and that's what the multi-stakeholder model is, it means you don't get to be the only one talking.
> 
> The multistakeholder model does not trump applicable law. You can demand anything you want, but when it violates our legal requirements, it will not fly. This is not an issue that is even up for debate. If 99% of this WG demanded something that was illegal to implement, it still will be turned down. 
> Collect your consolation prize over at the booth of the local governments.

I have used the law to craft a possible solution but no DP authority has taken your position. 

You are simply taking the position that if your profits aren't maximized and your costs aren't minimized it is illegal. This position is untenable. 

> 
>>> 
>>> To drive the point home: the purposes of third parties, including law enforcement have no relevance to the legal requirements for the collection and handling of private data. None whatsoever!
>>> 
>> You have a contract with ICANN, that contract establishes requirements. Those requirements make it legal.
> If you believe that, you probably still believe in Trump and other things as well. The above statement is so supendiously wrong, it boggles the mind. You are basically saying that a contract to break the law somehow makes it ok to do so? So if we signed a contract tomorrow to rob the local bank, that absolves us from any guilt? 

No one care about your inane political opinions. 


> 
> For clarity: The contract with ICANN can say that pigs may fly, but that does not change the laws of physics. If anything in the contract or ICANN policies violates applicable law, that part of the contract is null and void, does not apply, can be ignored, has no relevance, etc, etc. BTW: it even says so in the RAA. Maybe you can find the relevant passage yourself...

If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. Since you have neither, you pound the table.  
> 
>  
> 
>> 
>>> But we can find criminals faster with it! - No legal relevance.
>>> But we want to contact infringers! - No legal relevance.
>>> etc...
>> 
>> ICANN sets the rules, you get to follow them.
> If ICANN sets illegal rules, we get to ignore them. So why set illegal rules in the first place? To trap the unwitting and careless registrars?
>> 
>> You get a voice, we get a voice.
> Your voice can demand anything it likes, but if it is not in compliance with the law, it will be ignored. And rightly so. 
>> That's how contracts work.  
> Nope! Contracts do not allow a contracted party to break the law. There is a reason assassination contracts are illegal.
> 

No one is suggesting you break the law. Calm down. 

>> Chuck, this is why we're in trench warfare.  And it isn't going to change.
> Appears so. If one side continues to demand the illegal and the impossible for their own benefit, we will get nowhere. So why not educate yourself on the requirements of current and upcoming privacy regulations and afterwards, we can talk again...

No one is demanding anything illegal. 


>>>> So fully standardizing this will probably force some registrars to collect and share far more data than they currently do, and it's unlikely to reduce the data collected by the ones who collect more.
>>> Nope, the opposite is true.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Volker
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 10:17 PM, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
>>>>> Excellent suggestion.  Perhaps a future action                     item could be a survey of who various classes of stakeholders use RDS/whois. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 21:07, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have a hard time understanding what very stakeholder wants. If every group of stakeholder could write down how they see the new RDS functioning, just by doing a Venn diagram, we could better understand what we have in common and what we need to foncus on to reduce differences of opinion.
>>>>>> But that would require more work from already busy people. I think though, it could give us a more tangible view of what we are up against. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My .02 cents
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Nathalie 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:45 PM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 03:01:50PM -0500, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
>>>>>> > Except that is not the only approach to the problem nor the ones exclusively used by DP authorities (i.e. Twitter). That is why I asked the question I did and why I will be lobbying them directly for whois privacy for free. 
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But I thought the point of what we were doing was to make some
>>>>>> proposals for what to mask and how -- basically, that's what
>>>>>> differential access does.  And I also thought we were at the beginning
>>>>>> of that effort (much as it frustrates me the rate at which we move).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > The question of whether fields are optional or can be "masked" is inherently part of this discussion. 
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That's just conflating two different things.  The first thing is to
>>>>>> ask whether something should be collected _at all_.  Then one can ask,
>>>>>> if something is collected, who may obtain it and under what
>>>>>> circumstances.  This latter is the "masking" of which you speak.  And
>>>>>> it's all implemented as it currently is because whois is brain-dead.
>>>>>> So let us not be restricted to the functionality we can get from a
>>>>>> primitive protocol that had already been extended well beyond its
>>>>>> design constraints more than 20 years ago.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > To enable third-parties to communicate directly to resolve and troubleshoot problems. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I suggest that's already there.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > To enable third-parties to report abuse or security incidents so they may be resolved. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This too.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > To enable users and entities to have information to adjudicate an entity is who they say they are (for instance phishing, scams, fake news). 
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I find it impossible to imagine using the whois for this purpose, so
>>>>>> I'd like a use description for this.  Since it's not authenticated or
>>>>>> authenticatable information anyway, as there are no signatures and so
>>>>>> on, it seems a pretty poor way to do it.  This is partly included in
>>>>>> the purposes however when we discuss X.509 certificates.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > ICANN isn't just a business to confer domain names. Its a quasi-regulatory body over a "commons" and a natural monopoly. The purposes must be viewed beyond the prism of the mere registrar-consumer relationship as many interests are relevant and just as important. 
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> While I strongly agree that the purposes need to be rather wider than
>>>>>> the domain name industry, I'm uncomfortable with both of the claims of
>>>>>> quasi-regulatory authority, the notion of the Internet as a commons.
>>>>>> The root zone is indeed a natural monopoly, though.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Andrew Sullivan
>>>>>> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> _________________________________
>>>> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> 
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>>> 
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - legal department -
>>> 
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> -- 
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> 
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> 
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
> 
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
> 
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> 
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> 
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
> 
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu 
> 
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> 
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
> 
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
> 
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> 
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> 
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
> 
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu 
> 
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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