[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] a suggestion for "purpose in detail"
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Thu Mar 23 14:08:17 UTC 2017
Here we go again with the baseless allegations.
>>>
>>> Whois is the rope with which bad actors hang themselves.
>> Maybe dumb bad actors. Savvy bad actors just populate whois with data
>> of unknowing third parties, thereby rendering any verification and
>> validation instruments useless and inconveniencing the affected data
>> subjects as well.
>
> I think maybe its best you let the people who do this work speak for
> the value of the information. We're using it in criminal
> investigations and prosecutions. You're just simply taking their money.
Believe it or not, bad actors cost us money. We'd love to be able to
"not to take their money" as it is a poisoned pill.
And we see the whois data used by criminals all the time, when we look
at the reports we are sent. Usually it is fake data ripped from some
online database or the phone book.
>>> For every piece of data that is already gathered under the most
>>> comprehensive WHOIS regime, there is a strong industry backed
>>> argument that the data needs to continue being collected, and for it
>>> to remain available.
>> Which industry? Not the domain industry. And when it comes to
>> collection and handling of private data, our purposes for it is all
>> that matters legally unless there is a requirement by law to collect
>> and store.But in that case, compliance with local law would be the
>> acceptable purpose.
>
> Yes, you've made your position quite clear. But ICANN nor this group
> is a trade association of registrars solely focused on maximizing your
> profits and minimizing your expenses and allowing you to dump all the
> risk on society at large. But there are other voices here and that's
> what the multi-stakeholder model is, it means you don't get to be the
> only one talking.
The multistakeholder model does not trump applicable law. You can demand
anything you want, but when it violates our legal requirements, it will
not fly. This is not an issue that is even up for debate. If 99% of this
WG demanded something that was illegal to implement, it still will be
turned down.
Collect your consolation prize over at the booth of the local governments.
>>
>> To drive the point home: the purposes of third parties, including law
>> enforcement have no relevance to the legal requirements for the
>> collection and handling of private data. None whatsoever!
>>
> You have a contract with ICANN, that contract establishes
> requirements. Those requirements make it legal.
If you believe that, you probably still believe in Trump and other
things as well. The above statement is so supendiously wrong, it boggles
the mind. You are basically saying that a contract to break the law
somehow makes it ok to do so? So if we signed a contract tomorrow to rob
the local bank, that absolves us from any guilt?
For clarity: The contract with ICANN can say that pigs may fly, but that
does not change the laws of physics. If anything in the contract or
ICANN policies violates applicable law, that part of the contract is
null and void, does not apply, can be ignored, has no relevance, etc,
etc. BTW: it even says so in the RAA. Maybe you can find the relevant
passage yourself...
>
>> But we can find criminals faster with it! - No legal relevance.
>> But we want to contact infringers! - No legal relevance.
>> etc...
>
> ICANN sets the rules, you get to follow them.
If ICANN sets illegal rules, we get to ignore them. So why set illegal
rules in the first place? To trap the unwitting and careless registrars?
> You get a voice, we get a voice.
Your voice can demand anything it likes, but if it is not in compliance
with the law, it will be ignored. And rightly so.
> That's how contracts work.
Nope! Contracts do not allow a contracted party to break the law. There
is a reason assassination contracts are illegal.
> Chuck, this is why we're in trench warfare. And it isn't going to change.
Appears so. If one side continues to demand the illegal and the
impossible for their own benefit, we will get nowhere. So why not
educate yourself on the requirements of current and upcoming privacy
regulations and afterwards, we can talk again...
>>> So fully standardizing this will probably force some registrars to
>>> collect and share far more data than they currently do, and it's
>>> unlikely to reduce the data collected by the ones who collect more.
>> Nope, the opposite is true.
>>
>> Best,
>> Volker
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 10:17 PM, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Excellent suggestion. Perhaps a future action item could be a
>>> survey of who various classes of stakeholders use RDS/whois.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 21:07, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have a hard time understanding what very stakeholder wants.
>>>> If every group of stakeholder could write down how they see the
>>>> new RDS functioning, just by doing a Venn diagram, we could
>>>> better understand what we have in common and what we need to
>>>> foncus on to reduce differences of opinion.
>>>> But that would require more work from already busy people. I
>>>> think though, it could give us a more tangible view of what we
>>>> are up against.
>>>>
>>>> My .02 cents
>>>> Nathalie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:45 PM, Andrew Sullivan
>>>> <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com <mailto:ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 03:01:50PM -0500, John Bambenek via
>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
>>>> > Except that is not the only approach to the problem nor the
>>>> ones exclusively used by DP authorities (i.e. Twitter). That is
>>>> why I asked the question I did and why I will be lobbying them
>>>> directly for whois privacy for free.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> But I thought the point of what we were doing was to make some
>>>> proposals for what to mask and how -- basically, that's what
>>>> differential access does. And I also thought we were at the
>>>> beginning
>>>> of that effort (much as it frustrates me the rate at which we
>>>> move).
>>>>
>>>> > The question of whether fields are optional or can be
>>>> "masked" is inherently part of this discussion.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> That's just conflating two different things. The first thing is to
>>>> ask whether something should be collected _at all_. Then one
>>>> can ask,
>>>> if something is collected, who may obtain it and under what
>>>> circumstances. This latter is the "masking" of which you
>>>> speak. And
>>>> it's all implemented as it currently is because whois is
>>>> brain-dead.
>>>> So let us not be restricted to the functionality we can get from a
>>>> primitive protocol that had already been extended well beyond its
>>>> design constraints more than 20 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> > To enable third-parties to communicate directly to resolve
>>>> and troubleshoot problems.
>>>>
>>>> I suggest that's already there.
>>>>
>>>> > To enable third-parties to report abuse or security incidents
>>>> so they may be resolved.
>>>>
>>>> This too.
>>>>
>>>> > To enable users and entities to have information to
>>>> adjudicate an entity is who they say they are (for instance
>>>> phishing, scams, fake news).
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I find it impossible to imagine using the whois for this
>>>> purpose, so
>>>> I'd like a use description for this. Since it's not
>>>> authenticated or
>>>> authenticatable information anyway, as there are no signatures
>>>> and so
>>>> on, it seems a pretty poor way to do it. This is partly
>>>> included in
>>>> the purposes however when we discuss X.509 certificates.
>>>>
>>>> > ICANN isn't just a business to confer domain names. Its a
>>>> quasi-regulatory body over a "commons" and a natural monopoly.
>>>> The purposes must be viewed beyond the prism of the mere
>>>> registrar-consumer relationship as many interests are relevant
>>>> and just as important.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> While I strongly agree that the purposes need to be rather
>>>> wider than
>>>> the domain name industry, I'm uncomfortable with both of the
>>>> claims of
>>>> quasi-regulatory authority, the notion of the Internet as a
>>>> commons.
>>>> The root zone is indeed a natural monopoly, though.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Sullivan
>>>> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com <mailto:ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> _________________________________
>>> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
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>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
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>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
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>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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