[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
Alan Greenberg
alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca
Tue Feb 13 18:59:44 UTC 2018
We already have a fragmented system. And when European registrars were (reasonably) requesting exemptions, they were advocating fragmentation.
Regardless of what the GDPR details are, we have to presume that other jurisdictions will have different rules, both more and less stringent, perhaps a lot so.
Alan
--
Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos.
On February 13, 2018 1:36:52 PM EST, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>That brings us back to the question whether we would want a unified DNS
>
>system or a fractured one. I personally think 14% of the worlds
>registrations are quite a significant number, but even if you do not,
>does this mean you would prefer fragmentation of policies and rules?
>
>
>Am 13.02.2018 um 19:18 schrieb John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>> +1 (to Greg)
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:09 AM Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
>> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>>
>> What are the jurisdictions where gTLD registrants are located?
>> The stats indicate that a distinct minority of gTLD registrations
>> and registrants may qualify for GDPR protection. According to
>> ICANN’s metrics, 14% of registrants are in the EU. The top
>> jurisdictions are:
>>
>> USA 41.0%
>>
>> EU countries 14.0%
>>
>> China 9.4%
>>
>> Canada 4.2%
>>
>> Japan 3.5%
>>
>> Panama 3.3%
>>
>> [other 24.6%]
>>
>> These stats don’t tell us exactly how many registrations might
>> involve GDPR (affecting that are the jurisdictions of the various
>> parties involved in any given registartion, the fact that legal
>> person in the EU are not due the same protection as natural
>> persons, etc.). Still, that 14% is interesting.
>>
>> The European Commission itself recently told ICANN that solutions
>> can and should be balanced, to “preserve the proper use of WHOIS
>> while ensuring full compliance with the (current and future) EU
>> data protection rules”, and that GDPR only applies to the
>personal
>> data of natural persons in the EU.
>>
>> So, what justifies extending a particular protection regime
>> (baseline) to all registrants worldwide, especially when a
>> technical system can support situational-based needs?
>> Over-compliance is not necessary, and over-compliance erodes the
>> proper use of WHOIS. I suggest that a proper solution is to
>> enable compliance with a rule in the situations in which the rule
>> applies. The proper solution is not to over-apply a rule, or to
>> apply the rule where it does not have power.
>>
>> All best,
>>
>> --Greg
>>
>> Source:
>>
>https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/cct-metrics-domain-name-registration-2016-06-27-en
>>
>>
>> **********************************
>>
>> Greg Aaron
>>
>> Vice-President, Product Management
>>
>> iThreat Cyber Group / Cybertoolbelt.com
>>
>> mobile: +1.215.858.2257
>>
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>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Kathy
>> Kleiman
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 11:24 AM
>>
>>
>> *To:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
><mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>>
>> More than half the countries in the world now have comprehensive
>> data protection laws, and the number grows every year. We found
>> that in our research of foundation documents at the start of this
>> WG. The tipping point took place in 2015. As it happens, Volker's
>> approach simply does take this perspective into account.
>>
>> Best, Kathy
>>
>> On 2/13/2018 11:04 AM, Dotzero wrote:
>>
>> Volker, you assert that "it would be sensible to take GDPR as
>> a basis and start from there". Perhaps sensible from your
>> perspective and easier from your perspective but ICANN is an
>> international organization - primarily dealing with
>> technical/administrative issues - and it MUST take an
>approach
>> that, as best it can, accommodates the laws and practices of
>> various jurisdictions around the world. Your proposed
>> approach, quite simply does not do that.
>>
>> Michael Hammer
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM, Volker Greimann
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
><mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I think that it would be sensible to take the GDPR as a
>> basis and start from there. Obviously, where it conflicts
>> with other applicable laws, we should make sure to
>> accomodate those as well, but as the EU Commission and
>> others have pointed out is that compliance with GDPR does
>> not preclude providing certain access levels to certain
>> parties. What those levels would be and who those parties
>> could be should be the main focus of our work.
>>
>> Am 13.02.2018 um 15:41 schrieb Chuck:
>>
>> Volker,
>>
>> Are you saying that you think that RDS policies
>should
>> be designed to comply with European regulations and
>> then applied to all other jurisdictions in the world?
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> *From:*Volker Greimann
>[mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:58 AM
>> *To:* Chuck <consult at cgomes.com>
>> <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>; 'Michael Palage'
>> <michael at palage.com> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
>> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs.
>lawful
>>
>> I am afraid that if we create different policies for
>> different regions, we will break the model, encourage
>> forum shopping and encourage firewalling of entire
>> geographic sections of the net. I hope that is not
>> what we are doing here.
>>
>> GDPR will cause some breakage of this and I see it as
>> our mission to fix this breakage of the standard by
>> proposing a unified model once again.
>>
>> Ultimately, if this solution does what the EU has
>been
>> asking for, e.g. protect legitimate use cases of
>> registration data as well as the rights of the data
>> subjects, there is no reason why it should not be
>> universally applicable.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> Am 13.02.2018 um 00:04 schrieb Chuck:
>>
>> Volker,
>>
>> The WG could recommend policies that are
>> ‘universally applicable to all registrations’ but
>> I seriously doubt that will happen in today’s
>> world. That would be much simpler than policies
>> that vary by region and users, but is it
>realistic?
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Volker Greimann
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 2:30 PM
>> *To:* Michael Palage <michael at palage.com>
>> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
>> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs.
>> lawful
>>
>> Michael is right. ICANN iOS based on the thought
>> of “One World; one Internet”. This also means
>that
>> the policies it creates should be universally
>> applicable to all registrations, if possible. IF
>> we start creating policy that diverges, that
>would
>> only lead to further fragmentation and undermine
>> the founding ideal of ICANN itself. Our aim
>should
>> be to create one policy that can be applied to
>all
>> or most registrations and that can be implemented
>> by all registrars alike.
>>
>> While we will likely have a certain amount of
>> fragmentation following May 25 as each contracted
>> party applies its own solution, it should be our
>> goal to overcome this and present a new unified
>> policy that works for all contracted parties.
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12. Feb 2018, at 20:27, Michael Palage
>> <michael at palage.com
>> <mailto:michael at palage.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Greg/John,
>>
>> I will respectfully push back on your legal
>> over simplification of the GDPR.
>>
>> The exterritorial aspect of the GDPR set
>forth
>> in Article 3 is NOT just limited to EU
>> residents/citizens. As Michele has noted in
>> the past, the GDPR requires BlackKnight as an
>> Irish legal entity to protect all of its
>> customers data (EU/Non-EU) in compliance with
>> GDPR, as well as US entities that target and
>> conduct business within the EU.
>>
>> Now your points about the distinction between
>> natural and legal persons is a fair one and
>> one that has been noted in EU and Art 29
>> communications. Could you please share the
>> basis of your proposition that 97% of all
>> domain name registrations are registered by
>> legal entities.
>>
>> As I have note previously the long term
>> viability of the ICANN multi-stakeholder
>model
>> is at risk as national governments continue
>to
>> pass national laws that impact the operation
>> of the Internet. However, the European Union
>> is NOT alone in advancing Privacy
>Legislation,
>> in fact data localization is perhaps the next
>> biggest lurking threat to the domain name
>system.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
>> Behalf Of*John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> *Sent:*Monday, February 12, 2018 1:22 PM
>> *To:*Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
>> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>
>> *Cc:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis
>> vs. lawful
>>
>> I think Greg is right on. There's simply no
>> justification to force a law that is only
>> intended to apply to a) EU residents/citizens
>> that are b) natural persons not using the
>> domain name for commercial purposes, to the
>> remaining...what? 97% - 99% of the world's
>> registrant population? That would be a
>> balanced way to implement all of this.
>>
>> John Horton
>> President and CEO, LegitScript
>>
>>
>https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJRXE5UTAtclVxdTg&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJSG9zOUVwN1lFKzFrRVlnaWU0NGZ4RmdkUjg4PQ
>>
>> *Follow****Legit**Script*: LinkedIn
>>
><http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com>
>> | Facebook
>> <https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript> |
>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/legitscript> |
>> Blog
>> <http://blog.legitscript.com/> |Newsletter
>>
><http://go.legitscript.com/Subscription-Management.html>
>>
>>
>https://www.legitscript.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/LegitScript-Workplace.pnghttps://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJTmNWbmcwOTVJMXc&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJQlZWOXVGbG9acC9nRGhzdEkxclFJVytCWVNjPQ
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Greg Aaron
>> <gca at icginc.com <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>
>wrote:
>>
>> I don’t know if we arrive at the same
>place.
>>
>> GDPR is based on one principle. It
>states
>> what is legal. It's explicit about what
>> you _are allowed to do_; granted there’s
>> some flexibility and room for
>> interpretation. It’s like saying what’s
>> inside a box.
>>
>> U.S. law is one based on different
>> principles. AFAIK U.S. consumer
>protection
>> law does not enumerate specifically what
>> is lawful. Instead it tends to state what
>> is illegal, what you are _not allowed to
>> do_. It’s like saying what’s outside
>the
>> box. The U.S. doesn’t have something
>> like GDPR that spells out legal bases for
>> collecting data, i.e. the enumerated
>> allowable reasons. Instead the trade and
>> consumer protection laws basically say:
>> entities have the right to form contracts
>> between themselves, they should live up
>to
>> the contract, don’t surprise people,
>don’t
>> do certain dishonest things.
>>
>> Here's the problem: if one makes the GDPR
>> principle the ICANN standard and you
>apply
>> it to all registrations, then practices
>> that are allowable in one place under the
>> law (like the U.S.) would no longer be
>> allowed there by ICANN policy. ICANN
>> would be choosing one legal approach or
>> regime for everyone in the world.
>>
>> The alternative is to apply the GDRP only
>> to those that it is designed to protect:
>> registrants in the EU.
>>
>> For example, there’s nothing in U.S. law
>> that prohibits a U.S. registrar from
>> having a contract that says publication
>of
>> full contact data in WHOIS is a
>condition
>> of registering a domain name if you are a
>> registrant in the U.S.
>>
>>
>Seehttps://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/
>> for more.
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>
>[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
>> Behalf Of*Silver, Bradley via
>gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> *Sent:*Friday, February 9, 2018 2:54 PM
>> *To:*Volker Greimann
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
><mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>;gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>
>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal
>> basis vs. lawful
>>
>> It is true that the GDPR is prescriptive,
>> although also rather open-ended (hence
>our
>> current pickle). But regardless of the
>> term we use, don’t we arrive at the same
>> place: which is that if something that
>> requires a legal basis is done without
>> one, it will be unlawful? Using Kathy’s
>> example, if data is processed without
>> complying with minimization or purpose
>> principles, will such processing not run
>> afoul of the law, and hence be unlawful?
>>
>> There are important distinctions between
>> the meaning of “legal basis” which
>implies
>> that a law requires something to be
>> affirmatively present, versus “lawful”,
>> which means that something is not
>> prohibited by law. Ultimately though,
>> isn’t “lawfulness”, the same end point,
>> regardless?
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>
>[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
>> Behalf Of*Volker Greimann
>> *Sent:*Friday, February 09, 2018 11:27 AM
>> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal
>> basis vs. lawful
>>
>> I do not see how. Kathy's analysis seems
>> sound. The flexibility within the GDPR
>> still only allows processing in very
>> specific cicumstances, all of which are
>> listed in the GDPR.
>>
>> Am 09.02.2018 um 16:45 schrieb Victoria
>> Sheckler:
>>
>> Kathy’s analysis breaks down on a
>> practical level when one looks at the
>> GDPR and what it says about when data
>> can be processed. The GDPR allows for
>> flexibility for what can be processed
>> and when, and kathy’s analysis
>> overlooks that point.
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>
>[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
>> Behalf Of*Kathy Kleiman
>> *Sent:*Thursday, February 8, 2018
>7:07 PM
>> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal
>> basis vs. lawful
>>
>> Tx for the invitation to join, Chuck,
>> and following up on the discussion of
>> Sam and Tapani, let me add that
>> criteria for processing must be
>> clearer than something broadly within
>> ICANN's mission statement and
>> something permissible somewhere. The
>> requirements under law are express
>and
>> concrete.
>>
>> Specifically, GDPR Article 5(1)(b and
>> c) states:
>>
>> *Personal data shall be:
>> 2. "collected for_specified, explicit
>> and legitimate purposes_and not
>> further processed in a manner that is
>> incompatible with those
>purposes"*(the
>> "purpose limitation") AND*
>> 3. "adequate, relevant and limited to
>> what is necessary in relation to the
>> purposes for which they are
>> processed"*(the "data minimisation"
>> requirement). [underline added]*
>> *
>> Thus, our first criteria of
>> "consistent with ICANN's mission," is
>> only the first step and we need to go
>> further than even the 3 criteria we
>> are discussing..
>>
>> Second, lawful and legal enter us
>into
>> a debate over words and I have to
>> agree with Sam and Tapani's analysis
>> and let me add some of my own.
>>
>> "Legal" is the term we use for
>actions
>> expressly allowed under law. How we
>> process personal data under the GDRP
>> falls into this category -- of
>> processing expressly allowed under
>> law. Whereas the term lawful is used
>> for a much broader category of
>actions
>> which are generally permissible and
>> allowable.
>>
>> The term "legal" is much more
>> consistent with our criteria
>statement
>> because the processing of personal
>> data by ICANN must clearly have
>> a/valid legal basis/as expressly
>> defined by data protection laws.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kathy
>>
>> On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Sam Lanfranco
>wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Tapani,
>>
>> I will extract from your longer
>> message.
>> I deliberately kept my brief and
>> less technical.
>> I think we are in agreement here
>> and I support your position.
>>
>> On 2/7/2018 1:07 AM, Tapani
>> Tarvainen wrote:
>>
>> The key distinction, as I
>> understand it, is that "lawful"
>> would be
>> defined by the negative,
>> everything that some law does not
>> prohibit,
>>
>> where as "legal basis" is defined
>> by the positive, only things
>whose
>> justification can be explicitly
>> derived from law.
>>
>> <......>
>>
>> So I would prefer "legal basis"
>> specifically in this sense: that
>> any processing
>> would have to be explicitly
>based
>> on one of the criteria, or bases,
>> as listed
>> in GDPR Article 6, or similar
>> explicit justification in other
>> data protection legislation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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