[SubPro-IRT] Topic 21.1: Geographic Names - Updated

Fri Oct 13 18:28:11 UTC 2023

Dear Marc,

Nice – we start to get somewhere. Regarding the potentially too short timeframe: If we had chosen 6 months – and the AGB provides some 9 months extra time AFTER the application submission – then that would be ample time.

But If others agree with you that any timeframe (even 15 months in my example) is “too short” – then maybe the provision to enable Governments to retract their support letter might be a solution, too. It is essentially the reversion of the duty: instead of forcing all city applicants to get their signature in a 6-month timeframe we would burden just the few that don’t want to be victim of speculation to get a retraction of some premature letter of non-objection.  

What do others think about the issue? Am I hyperventilating or do others see the risk of speculation, too? City gTLD applicants that have intense local footing and support should not have to fear having to pay ransom to speculators. In the last round this wasn’t too much of a problem, because nobody foresaw the commercial viability of these city gTLDs – and that there will be auctions. This time around the setting is very different.

Thanks,

Alexander 

___________________________________

Alexander Schubert

LinkedIn.com/in/alexanderschubert

+1(202)684-6806

From: trachtenbergm at gtlaw.com <trachtenbergm at gtlaw.com> 
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2023 9:05 PM
To: alexander at schubert.berlin; subpro-irt at icann.org
Subject: RE: [SubPro-IRT] Topic 21.1: Geographic Names - Updated

Alexander,

For clarity, I didn’t mean that the proviso would strong-arm the Government entity essentially forcing them into submission.  Rather I meant that it could be very difficult and time consuming to get government endorsement in the first place and that even if the government granted endorsement and agreed to re-sign 6 months before application submission, that there is nothing requiring the government to actually do the re-signing.  It could require additional significant time an effort to get the re-signing, not because the government changed its mind, but because re-signing might be very low on its priority list and it might focus its attention on more important matters. This seems to me to be an unnecessary and undesirable burden to put on applicants.

That said, I acknowledge the risk you outline below of the possible sending of chain letters and agree that there will many speculators applying in the next round (I actually think the majority of applications will be from speculators and that the failure to prohibit private auctions will result in the pollution of the next round into a speculation cesspool) and agree with your proposed approach whereby If the government entity withdraws their letter of support before the application deadline – such letter would be ineligible to support the application.

Best regards,

Marc H. Trachtenberg 
Shareholder

Chair, Internet, Domain Name, e-Commerce and Social Media Practice
Greenberg Traurig, LLP 
77 West Wacker Drive | Suite 3100 | Chicago, IL 60601 
T +1 312.456.1020 

M +1 773.677.3305
 <mailto:trachtenbergm at gtlaw.com> trac at gtlaw.com |  <http://www.gtlaw.com/> www.gtlaw.com  |   <https://www.gtlaw.com/en/professionals/t/trachtenberg-marc-h> View GT Biography 

From: SubPro-IRT <subpro-irt-bounces at icann.org <mailto:subpro-irt-bounces at icann.org> > On Behalf Of alexander at schubert.berlin <mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin> 
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2023 12:27 PM
To: subpro-irt at icann.org <mailto:subpro-irt at icann.org> 
Subject: Re: [SubPro-IRT] Topic 21.1: Geographic Names - Updated

Dear Marc,

I agree with you when you say, “having a proviso saying that something will be re-signed later is not the same thing as actually getting it resigned later”.

Albeit I might have expressed myself not clear enough – because I mean the opposite:

I am not asking for the proviso to strong-arm the Government entity; essentially forcing them into submission. I just want to prevent that someone is sending chain letters of non-objection requests to hundreds of city majors (something that literally costs zero effort) a year or more before the application window opens – and the government has no knowledge that the signature that actually “counts” will have to be much closer to the actual application submission date. But I am not insisting on any proviso – we can leave it away.

My best guess is that we will face entities that will apply for city gTLDs mainly to enter the ICANN contention set resolution – which is an auction. If they win the auction at a low price: great! A city-gTLD for a low amount. If they lose: GREAT: free money for zero effort! Some longtime local grassroots effort that is managed, financed, and owned by local city entities will then be forced to throw away a large swat of money just to secure the application – essentially paying ransom to the “gTLD speculator”. And said city might not have provided that letter of non-objection if they had evaluated the efforts of the local applicant group already. Exactly that happened with .africa:
An early, premature support letter that then later in the game would have never been signed – but its mere existence was enough to support the application. I agree that “governments” act slowly – but city majors do act much faster.

How about the following: If the government entity withdraws their letter of support before the application deadline – such letter would be illegible to support the application? We have such provision in the AGB for later stages of the geo gTLD life cycle – just not for the application phase. That would work, too. 

Thanks,

Alexander 

___________________________________

Alexander Schubert

LinkedIn.com/in/alexanderschubert <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/LinkedIn.com/in/alexanderschubert__;!!DUT_TFPxUQ!B9aYRjvdRQ8EZN41dmOFkVsqIbFEk5_HzxsuqJ4SR4kOk44KA-eiD3LmNbbct1nMVEkSyI7ofhUzAOaA30IjXxIje2kD$> 

+1(202)684-6806

From: SubPro-IRT <subpro-irt-bounces at icann.org <mailto:subpro-irt-bounces at icann.org> > On Behalf Of trachtenbergm--- via SubPro-IRT
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2023 6:11 PM
To: samlanfranco at gmail.com <mailto:samlanfranco at gmail.com> ; abl at annebeth-lange.no <mailto:abl at annebeth-lange.no> 
Cc: subpro-irt at icann.org <mailto:subpro-irt at icann.org> 
Subject: Re: [SubPro-IRT] Topic 21.1: Geographic Names - Updated

I would just add that as anyone who deals with government knows, having a proviso saying that something will be re-signed later is not the same thing as actually getting it resigned later.  There are many unrelated circumstances the government entity could be dealing with that could take precedence over this getting re-signed and I don’t think that the applicant should be burdened with having to go through this process with government twice.  I don’t think 12 months (or even 18 months) before is so long that there is a material risk that the endorsement will have changed – at least no more risk than if the endorsement had been procured 6 months before.

Marc H. Trachtenberg 
Shareholder

Chair, Internet, Domain Name, e-Commerce and Social Media Practice
Greenberg Traurig, LLP 
77 West Wacker Drive | Suite 3100 | Chicago, IL 60601 
T +1 312.456.1020 

M +1 773.677.3305
 <mailto:trachtenbergm at gtlaw.com> trac at gtlaw.com |  <http://www.gtlaw.com/> www.gtlaw.com  |   <https://www.gtlaw.com/en/professionals/t/trachtenberg-marc-h> View GT Biography 

From: Sam Lanfranco <samlanfranco at gmail.com <mailto:samlanfranco at gmail.com> > 
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2023 9:56 AM
To: Trachtenberg, Marc H. (Shld-Chi-IP-Tech) <trachtenbergm at gtlaw.com <mailto:trachtenbergm at gtlaw.com> >; abl at annebeth-lange.no <mailto:abl at annebeth-lange.no> 
Cc: subpro-irt at icann.org <mailto:subpro-irt at icann.org> 
Subject: Re: [SubPro-IRT] Topic 21.1: Geographic Names - Updated

Colleagues,

Is there a middle ground here? Not only can it take time to get a government to respond, the longer the period between that endorsement and the submission date, the greater the possibility that the governmental context can change. The process also wants to be protected from an early endorsement that is no longer valid. Would the following work?

The initial request (and negotiations) for endorsement would contain a proviso that the agreement would be re-initialed/signed/verified just prior to the submission of the proposal. The applicant would be responsible for making sure that the contact person/office and context were such that the re-initial/sign/verify process would go smoothly at submission, and the evaluation process would be secure in the knowledge that the context had not changed, risking making the endorsement questionable. Also, there would be no need for a specified time frame. 

Sam Lanfranco, NCSG

On 10/13/2023 9:14 AM, trachtenbergm--- via SubPro-IRT wrote:

I agree as well but think 6 months is too short. It can be difficult to get a government entity to do anything and I think signing this letter will be low on the priority list. If an applicant is investing significant time and money in applying they shouldn’t have to scramble at the last minute to get the letter signed (or re-signed) and have everything be for naught if the government entity drags its feet. I think 12 or 18 months prior is more reasonable. 

Best Regards,

Marc H.Trachtenberg 

Chair, Internet, Domain Name, eCommerce, and Social Media Practice

Shareholder

Greenberg Traurig, LLP

77 West Wacker Drive

Chicago, IL 60601

Office (312) 456-1020

Mobile (773) 677-3305

On Oct 13, 2023, at 6:48 AM, Annebeth Lange via SubPro-IRT  <mailto:subpro-irt at icann.org> <subpro-irt at icann.org> wrote:

*EXTERNAL TO GT*

I agree with Alexander and Justine. It would be a good idea to set a time line to avoid problems.

Best regards 

Annebeth 

13. okt. 2023 kl. 12:35 skrev Justine Chew  <mailto:justine.chew.icann at gmail.com> <justine.chew.icann at gmail.com>:

Thank you for bringing this up, Alexander. 

I think what you alluded to is very relevant, and in my personal capacity, I would urge Lars, Michael K. and their colleagues to consider propagating some language on this in the same way they proposed to address the issue brought up by Susan regarding what "a limited time frame to provide the documentation" under para 2.4 could mean (noting also Ruben's remark about Extended Evaluation).

Kind regards,
Justine

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 at 17:50,  <mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin> <alexander at schubert.berlin> wrote:

Hi members,

I guess few of us have ever dealt with the real-life issues of obtaining “government support” for a geo gTLD. I have: both in the last round, and right now for the 2nd round. And I urge us to remember one of the glaring issues that actually created quite a commotion in the 1st round:

The total absence of any timeline for such letter. In the last round one applicant had government support that was literally ‘years old’ – and allegedly even subsequently withdrawn: .africa. Remember what hassle that caused?

So, I recommend introducing a simple shelf-life requirement for the support letter. It is of course laudable when such support letter has been acquired years before the application submission. But even IF an applicant acquired such expression of support very early out – would it be an unbearable task for them to kindly ask the applicable entity to re-sign the letter? Because sometimes the responsible entity changes (e.g., a new major in a city) and shouldn’t they have a say, too? Or they changed their mind – e.g., after having been approached by a more suitable applicant. I think the signature under the support letter shouldn’t be older than e.g., 6 months before the application submission. The exact amount of time would of course be subject to discussion. But I assume we could save ourselves quite some troubles if we require to either sign (or re-sign an already signed) letter X months before the actual application submission.

I also urge to have the deadline requirement stipulated in the letter itself: so that the relevant Government entity is aware that they will have to resign the letter later! Something along the lines: “The signee is aware that ICANN will require that this letter of support (non-objection) has to be authorized (or re-authorized) within 6 months to the actual application submission.”

Has the example support letter draft been finalized already? Is the draft publicly available for review?

Thanks,

Alexander 

___________________________________

Alexander Schubert

LinkedIn.com/in/alexanderschubert <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/LinkedIn.com/in/alexanderschubert__;!!DUT_TFPxUQ!HZjzdcrlRTVfhwyGdwckC63DQ-xayhwPPVqJWZJhtXxtZSLd67kxakHnmedTHTiOu8qb7NG6LqCmOPQsreXQ4N4$> 

+1(202)684-6806

From: SubPro-IRT <subpro-irt-bounces at icann.org <mailto:subpro-irt-bounces at icann.org> > On Behalf Of Michael Karakash
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2023 9:51 PM
To: subpro-irt at icann.org <mailto:subpro-irt at icann.org> 
Subject: [SubPro-IRT] Topic 21.1: Geographic Names - Updated

Dear IRT Members,

We’ve updated the Geographic Names AGB section <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/docs.google.com/document/d/1N1iLzfPp4IeTuTyO46T7WSjww7kpe_fzJIVOaSQ5qwI/edit?usp=sharing__;!!DUT_TFPxUQ!HZjzdcrlRTVfhwyGdwckC63DQ-xayhwPPVqJWZJhtXxtZSLd67kxakHnmedTHTiOu8qb7NG6LqCmOPQseibaGJw$>  based on the discussions held on the 3 October IRT call. As noted during that session, we will not be having another dedicated call on this topic but can continue to discuss this on-list if there are any comments or concerns.

As a reminder, past agenda items and video/audio recordings from the previous session can be found on the IRT Community Wiki. <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=273449325__;!!DUT_TFPxUQ!HZjzdcrlRTVfhwyGdwckC63DQ-xayhwPPVqJWZJhtXxtZSLd67kxakHnmedTHTiOu8qb7NG6LqCmOPQsGORs-tg$> 

Thank you!

Best,

Michael

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