Time Zone change in GEORGIA (Eastern Europe), time zone is no w GMT+3 (no longer GMT+4)
aiet at qartuli.net
Wed Oct 27 00:03:19 UTC 2004
Hello. As there have been some replies on the matter, I have
subscribed to the mailing list, so you don't have to cc on every reply
Thank you Paul, for the valuable information and resources.
As a matter of fact, I am Georgian and have never heard that Phasis
could be associated with the Chorokhi River :) Phasis is indeed Rioni
and the whole Golden Fleece story is just one of the facts proving it.
As to the border between Europe and Asia, many sources indeed consider
the Phasis River to be deviding Georgia in europian and asian parts,
and there is no doubt that some part of Georgia can be conisdered a
part of Europe, though the border is always said to be unfixed.
Georgian's mission has always been to link Europe with Asia, resulting
in "Eurasian" country and culture. Colkhis for instance should be
considered Europe, whereas Iberia, I guess, should be in Asia.
If we consider the culture, behavour, characteristics and traditions
of Georgia, it may seem more Europian than Asian today, though actually
'Georgian' would best describe it.
I agree that whenever the city Tbilisi is noted, it should be put in
Asian region, whereas mentioning the country, maybe we should put it
in Europe, or in Europe and Asia if possible.
If it's about politics (and I guess it is, since there has never been
a strict border between Europe and Asia), than Europe would be the
best place for present-day Georgia, considering the fact that Georgia
is already a memeber of Council of Europe and may well be a memeber of
EU in next years.
What about Turkey? Geographically and historically the main part of
Turkey has always belonged to Asia, though the recent developments
show that it will become a EU member state. Would it be correct to
list a EU member state in Asia?
There is another fact speaking in favour of putting Georgia in Europe.
Recent archeological findings in Dmanisi region of Georgia show the
traces of living in Georgia 2,5 million years ago (!) making it a
possible home of all pre-Europian poeple before they moved to Western
Europe (the article can be found in lasts years Nationa Geographic and
other sources of that kind, as well as here:
So, as a conclusion, I can not definitely belong Georgia to Europe and
Asia. It is definitely a part of both, or none, but not the part of
any of the regions. As Clive D.W. Feather suggested, maybe we should
just place a link in Europe and Asia and leave the matter to be
decided by the ongoing developments in Europe and Asia :-)
Many sources have listed Georgia in Asia, whereas more and more
sources seem to putting it in Europe. WorldAtlas.com for example puts
it in Europe,
( http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/ge.htm ) but CIA
World Factbook in Asia.
Wednesday, October 27, 2004, 12:32:43 AM, you wrote:
> "Clive D.W. Feather" <clive at demon.net> writes:
>> However, the upper horizontal line on that diagram roughly follows the
>> Great Caucasus Mountains, which makes a reasonable boundary.
> The key question here is what continent Tbilisi is in, since that's
> the data point that the tz database uses.
> Modern sources typically give either the crest of the Caucasus, or the
> Kuma-Manych Depression (which separates the Russian Plain from the
> North Caucasus), as the boundary between Europe and Asia in that
> region. This would put Tbilisi in Asia.
> For ancient sources the story is more interesting. Prof. Thomas
> V. Gamkrelidze, Member of the Georgian Parliament, writes in
> <http://www.parliament.ge/GENERAL/C_D/europe.htm> that for the ancient
> Greeks the boundary was the river Phasis, normally identified with the
> modern Rioni.
> Gamkrelidze must be alluding to Herodotus, Histories, IV.45
> <http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Hdt.+4.45.1> but he
> omits some crucial details. Herodotus wrote that the border between
> Europe and Asia is not universally agreed upon, and that some say it's
> the Don, some the Kerch straits, and some (including Herodotus
> himself) the Phasis river. All these interpretations would mean that
> Tbilisi itself in Asia, even though Herodotus's preferred border (the
> Phasis/Rioni) would mean that some of Georgia is in Europe.
> But wait, there's more! Gamkrelidze writes that some people identify
> the Phasis with the modern Chorokhi River. This extreme
> interpretation would put most of Georgia (including Tbilisi) in Europe
> (along with some of northeast Turkey, and perhaps Armenia and a few
> other places....). However, I haven't been able to find any other
> source that makes this claim: all the standard sources I have found
> identify the Phasis with the modern Rioni. This shouldn't be too
> surprising, since the Rioni flows into the Black Sea at Poti, and
> Poti's ancient name was also Phasis. I'm pretty dubious about any
> attempt to identify the Phasis with the Chorokhi, and if you read
> Gamkrelidze's article you'll see he's pretty dubious about that too.
> While we're on the subject of ancient sources, Strabo, Geography, XI.1
> <http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Strab.+11.1.1> says
> flatly that the boundary between Europe and Asia is the Don.
> To summarize the last few paragraphs: all the ancient sources I've
> found agree that Tbilisi itself is in Asia.
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