tim at timtimeonline.com
Fri Dec 15 23:45:09 UTC 2017
I searched "(kiev OR kyiv) site:____" with various English-language news
sites on Google News, and sorted each result by date to get a recent
article which referred specifically to the Ukrainian capital:
2017-12-15: "After students were beaten in Kiev’s central square…"
2017-11-24: "…knew it was time to leave his home of Kiev, Ukraine."
2017-12-14: "Kiev has been the scene of a somewhat farcical drama this
2017-11-25: "…obtained from a government source in the Ukrainian capital,
2017-11-28: "…March for Equality, an LGBTQ event in Kiev…"
2017-12-15: "…don’t want what has happened in Kiev to happen in their
2017-12-15: "…the final of the Champions League in Kiev in May…"
2017-12-08: "…the opposition leader had been detained by police in Kiev…"
2017-12-09: "…was dragged from his home in Kiev and arrested."
2017-12-05: "…an apartment in the capital Kiev…"
2017-12-05: "…ran Manafort's office in Kiev…"
2017-12-05: "The turmoil in Kiev is just the latest challenge for the
Indeed, it seems these major English-language news outlets almost
universally use "Kiev" to this day, except when the place name is used as
part of a different proper noun, such as when referring to the *Kyiv Post*
<https://www.kyivpost.com/>. It's even in the BBC News style guide to use
"Kiev" and not "Kyiv":
Although several of these outlets have written articles on the differences
in orthography over the years, until there is enough common usage of "Kyiv"
in the English language that a significant number of these outlets decide
to switch, it is reasonable to say that "Kiev" remains the
generally-accepted English spelling despite certain governmental
recognitions of "Kyiv". But this is not the venue for that discussion.
On 15 December 2017 at 14:19, Garrett Wollman <wollman at csail.mit.edu> wrote:
> <<On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 11:32:03 +0100, "Philip Paeps" <philip at trouble.is>
> > Note that we do not have a "Europe/Koebenhavn" or a "Europe/Lefkosia" -
> > to pick two examples of transliterations of local names that are
> > different from the names of the cities in English. We have a
> > "Europe/Copenhagen" and the "Europe/Nicosia".
> Contrast the case (which thankfully we do not have to deal with) of
> the capital city of the People's Republic of China. In English, it
> used to be called "Peking", and in fact in the name of the university
> and of the duck dish it still is. The PRC government made a concerted
> campaign to change the name used by English speakers to be "Beijing",
> which is a phonetic representation of the name of the city in Mandarin
> (putonghua). This has to a very large extent worked, and now most
> English texts say "Beijing" and not "Peking" (although many people
> still don't pronounce it "correctly" because the letters in hanyu
> pinyin don't have the same sound values as they do in English).
> However, in many languages *other than English*, the name of the city
> has not changed -- AFAIK it's still "Pékin" in French, for example.
> So the lesson here is that, if the Ukrainian people (or their
> government) earnestly want to change how the name of their capital
> city is written by English speakers, they're going to have to do a way
> more effective job at lobbying the people who actually shape how
> English speakers use words -- especially the mass media. The tz
> database is descriptive and lobbying its maintainers will not have the
> desired effect.
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