jacob at jhpratt.dev
Fri Nov 27 09:43:28 UTC 2020
As has been stated by others, the listing should not be taken as something
to be displayed. The use of Kiev over Kyiv is well established in the tz
database. The fact that programmers do not use the CLDR as intended is not
the fault of the maintainers of the tz database.
On Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 03:58 Andriy Ivanchenko <ivanchenko.andriy at gmail.com>
> Thank you for considering my question.
> I think in English the name of the city came from the Russian language due
> to historical features.
> Kiev - from Russian pronunciation.
> Kyiv - from Ukrainian pronunciation.
> The state language of Ukraine is the Ukrainian language.
> Most programmers show the original record from the database as Kiev when
> providing the time zone selection. And this leads to discussions.
> You can also find the correct inscription on the website of the US Embassy
> in Ukraine. In the contacts below.
> U.S. Embassy
> U.S. Embassy Kyiv <https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/kyiv/>
> 4 A.I. Sikorsky St.
> 04112 Kyiv, Ukraine
> Here https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/55-2010-п#Text you can see
> transliteration at the state level, if that helps.
> Maybe it's time to introduce multilingual support in your database?
> чт, 26 лист. 2020 о 18:44 Alan Perry <alanp at snowmoose.com> пише:
>> As a Wikipedia editor, I think Mr. Hawkinson should spend some time
>> participating in the Wikipedia decision making process before trying to
>> take in characterizing its inertia against change to others.
>> I also question his claim that “major English-language authorities have
>> all switched to Kyiv” without listing them. The English language doesn’t
>> have official authorities, what constitutes a major English-language
>> authority is subjective.
>> As far as this group, I am not sure what the WSJ or AP does is
>> particularly relevant. However, I think the decisions of English-language
>> naming authorities, like the USGS Board on Geographical Names, and
>> international authorities that designate things in English, like IATA and
>> ICAO, are more relevant and they have gone to using Kyiv as the primary
>> name. What are similar governmental and international authorities doing on
>> > On Nov 26, 2020, at 06:07, John Hawkinson <jhawk at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> > MAJOR CHANGE: It's interesting to me how badly we are, as a group, at
>> having these discussions. We do not do a good job of introducing new people
>> to the way we think about these issues, and we do not do a good job of
>> assessing whether the ground under our feet has changed (it has!)
>> > What Andriy's email did not explain is the rather significant change:
>> > On Sept. 16, 2020, Wikipedia finally decided that the time had come and
>> moved its page from Kiev to Kyiv.
>> > See
>> > It was summarized with:
>> > | Rough consensus that "Kyiv" is the better title given usage in
>> > | reliable, English-language sources. An extended summary/rationale
>> > | prefaces the discussion. — Wug·a·po·des 06:58, 16 September 2020
>> > | (UTC)
>> > That decision was positively reviewed week later at
>> (you have to click the "show" button).
>> > I'm not an expert in Wikipedia's decision-making processes, but I will
>> say that about a year ago (Oct. 3, 2019), I made this prediction: "Because
>> of its...unique project management challenges, I expect Wikipedia will
>> probably be the last thing to switch. (cf.
>> I don't think we should wait that long."
>> > Turns out I was wrong, Wikipedia switched before tz. Wikipedia, also,
>> instituted a moratorium on these discussions; the last one was a year long,
>> and so that's why this one come a year following our previous substantive
>> discussion, after the Associated Press and the Wall Street Journal made
>> > So, it is probably time for us to take another look.
>> > I continue to support the change, and I think the objections offered
>> are really just excuses.
>> > We wouldn't excuse an American racist anachronism in our database in
>> the same way; perhaps this is not appropriately comparable, but I think it
>> is not wrong to ask the question as to whether it is.
>> > Specific comments:
>> > Andriy: The tz project has long been aware of this issue, and the
>> project leaders have felt that the English-language concensus remained
>> Kiev, although they were aware of the clear preference of the Ukranian
>> government and citizenry. So the question now is whether the
>> English-language concensus has changed. It's clear that we should be
>> looking at that once again.
>> > Lester Caine: No one with a straight face can pretend that timezone
>> identifiers are opauqe tags right now. And I think very few people could
>> see a way to a transition where they are. In part because
>> US-English-centered developers like working with the names as they are, and
>> change is hard and frustrating and often counterproductive.
>> > David Patte: Enshrining offensive anachronisms by changing our standard
>> to be "if we made a mistake, we will never fix it" is politically
>> unpalatable in almost every part of the world. I would find it politically
>> unpalatable here. We are concerned about churn and "opening the floodgates"
>> so we have made it hard to make changes, for good reason, but a system that
>> is impossible to change is no good either.
>> > I do think it's clear that the major English-language authorities have
>> all switched to Kyiv.
>> > If our process is going to be to claim that we need to wait for the
>> majority of written words to change over (e.g. based on Google search
>> results, N-grams, etc.), I think we are setting an unreasonably high and
>> unattainable target.
>> > Kyiv has marshalled a political campaign to make this happen throughout
>> the world in a way that it's difficult to imagine any other city doing, and
>> it's very hard for me to see why we should substitute our judgement for
>> that of all the authorities, be they formal political ones or simply major
>> news sources and style guides. If this is not enough, what would ever be?
>> > --
>> > jhawk at alum.mit.edu
>> > John Hawkinson
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