[tz] Proposal to revert 2023b's Lebanon data changes
Rany Hany
rany_hany at riseup.net
Tue Mar 28 15:59:29 UTC 2023
Maybe I should have been clearer. If MEA stated that they will land at
2PM EEST, they just pushed it by an hour to instead be 3PM EET.
Hope that clears it up.
On 3/28/23 18:55, Rany Hany via tz wrote:
> The airlines simply adjusted their time one hour into the future to
> "postpone DST." So in effect nothing changed relative to UTC.
>
>
> On 3/28/23 18:53, Andrea Singletary wrote:
>>
>> What did the airlines do? Historically, the TZDB has taken a lot of
>> its info from the IATA Standard Schedules Information Manual. It’s
>> worth considering that as we attempt to reconcile this.
>>
>> *From:* Rany Hany <rany_hany at riseup.net>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 28, 2023 7:24 AM
>> *To:* Jad Baz <jadbaz at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* Time zone mailing list <tz at iana.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [tz] Proposal to revert 2023b's Lebanon data changes
>>
>> Well said. I think this is on AUBMC for being too excited about
>> postponing DST. I also think they're the only org that actually
>> bothered and tried being compliant.
>>
>> Of course, technically they were doing the right thing and it was not
>> totally foreseeable that it will be reverted but it should be said
>> that they're the only ones with this issue. No need to inflict issues
>> on everyone else because you were "responsible" and agreed to being
>> bullied by the government.
>>
>> On 3/28/23 14:43, Jad Baz wrote:
>>
>> So this is quite a pickle
>>
>> I suggest we focus more on the impact than on official vs
>> non-official. I say this especially in light of the minister's
>> reason for keeping Winter time 3 more days: that it's a time
>> window for institutions to revert to DST in case they changed
>>
>> Most IT systems did not implement any changes before the weekend
>> and those that might have considered starting to change them
>> Monday morning held off until the cabinet meeting. And then
>> subsequently decided not to bother with implementing any changes
>> for those 3 days
>>
>> Let's try to find out what systems changed and what systems did not
>>
>> Are there any large institutions that have set their IT systems
>> on Winter time aside from AUBMC and the aiport?
>>
>> We know that the central bank kept DST for all transaction data
>> (while employees clocked in on winter time)
>>
>> Following the central bank, all Lebanese banks kept their systems
>> on DST
>>
>> I haven't heard of a hospital other than AUBMC that changed their
>> local time to Winter time
>>
>> I feel that messing up all the country's financial records is
>> very risky
>>
>> What's the risk involved in having 4 days of historical
>> inaccuracies in EPIC records and local flight times
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 28, 2023, 13:57 Rany Hany via tz <tz at iana.org> wrote:
>>
>> There is no consensus, even in the case of hospitals. For
>> example, Hôtel-Dieu (USJ) and Bellevue did not abide by the
>> change.
>>
>> > Hôtel-Dieu de France and its hospital network have decided
>> to comply with DST tonight (25-26 March 2023).
>>
>> Source: https://www.usj.edu.lb/news.php?id=13195
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.usj.edu.lb/news.php?id=13195__;!!BJMh1g!_tmD-94p_mY-w8Tlt_j2__Ybjmrxyw0rfsuOBZxNHKyBnSHoeNUsHlGCkYBlcR_-qaImhQp59hBKhj9u$>
>>
>> On 3/28/23 13:43, Andrea Singletary via tz wrote:
>>
>> Below my email is a message from my colleague Paige
>> Tummons, who works closely with hospitals and clinics in
>> Lebanon. They are of the position that the TZDB update
>> needs to reflect DST in Lebanon _beginning on the 30th._
>>
>> I understand that the goal of TZDB is to reflect the
>> reality on the ground, but the situation on the ground is
>> not as clear-cut as it may seem. Per my colleagues in
>> Lebanon, people ARE still operating on Standard Time,
>> most of them having updated their phones to the Cairo
>> time zone to remain on UTC+2, with a plan to switch back
>> on March 30. In the absence of genuine consensus among
>> the Lebanese people, I argue that it's best for 2023c to
>> codify the government's official position that DST
>> _begins on the 30th._
>>
>> Best,
>> Andrea
>>
>> ---
>>
>> From Paige Tummons:
>>
>> I’m reaching out regarding your request for comments
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2023-March/032833.html__;!!BJMh1g!_tmD-94p_mY-w8Tlt_j2__Ybjmrxyw0rfsuOBZxNHKyBnSHoeNUsHlGCkYBlcR_-qaImhQp59gEb7iHN$>
>> on the proposal to revert back to 2023a instead of
>> updating 2023c to reflect the Lebanon DST change of _30
>> March_. I’ve been working closely with medical centers in
>> Lebanon to ensure that their healthcare systems are in
>> continuous legal compliance with the government
>> directives. We have been in close communication with
>> Lebanese government authorities who legally consider the
>> spring forward event to be _on 30 March_ (with the jump
>> being _from 11:59:59 PM on 29 March to 01:00:00 AM on 30
>> March_).
>>
>> We are strongly urging you to reflect this update in the
>> 2023c file, to avoid the published tzdata file being in
>> direct conflict with the government directive of the
>> spring DST event in Lebanon happening _on 30 March_. The
>> Prime Minister met with the cabinet yesterday, and
>> together they agreed that Lebanon DST happens _on the
>> 30^th of March_. No government authorities consider the
>> 26 March 2023 event to be the “true” DST time for Lebanon.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Paige Tummons
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Saadallah Itani <sitani at aub.edu.lb>
>> <mailto:sitani at aub.edu.lb>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 28, 2023 5:02 AM
>> *To:* Paul Eggert <eggert at cs.ucla.edu>
>> <mailto:eggert at cs.ucla.edu>; Andrea Singletary
>> <asinglet at epic.com> <mailto:asinglet at epic.com>
>> *Cc:* Time zone mailing list <tz at iana.org>
>> <mailto:tz at iana.org>; Maher Kassab <maherk at aub.edu.lb>
>> <mailto:maherk at aub.edu.lb>; Mohammad Abbass
>> <mabbass at aub.edu.lb> <mailto:mabbass at aub.edu.lb>; Deborah
>> Goldsmith <goldsmit at apple.com> <mailto:goldsmit at apple.com>
>> *Subject:* [tz] Proposal to revert 2023b's Lebanon data
>> changes
>>
>>
>>
>> External Mail
>>
>>
>> Dear Paul,
>>
>> Its very important to make sure you change on Github the
>> "Asia file- Lebanon
>> section" and commit the Decision taken by the cabinet of
>> Ministers in
>> Lebanon Government yesterday March 27 that states the
>> revert to DST will
>> happen on March 30. As we saw on tz git code that you
>> commented the Rule
>> and its ineffective for the new file 2023-c.
>>
>>
>>
>> "As quoted by Andrea from EPIC health systems:
>>
>> I highly recommend "recording the chaos in more detail in
>> the data" as the
>> approach here. The Lebanese government has clarified that
>> for them,
>> DST/summer time in 2023 begins on March 30, with the
>> clocks going from
>> 23:59:59 March 29 to 01:00:00 March 30. (No word on what
>> this means for next
>> year, but I digress.)
>>
>> It's important that this be memorialized correctly
>> because the systems that
>> depend on it include health systems that feed vital
>> records databases. A
>> baby born in Beirut at 21:30 UTC on March 27 will be born
>> at 23:30 local
>> Beirut time, and its birthday will be March 27. If we
>> simply revert to
>> version 2023a, that would not sync up with the
>> government, so the baby's
>> birthday might be recorded as 00:30 on March 28 in health
>> system records,
>> which would not align with the government's opinion on
>> the baby's date of
>> birth.
>>
>> Maybe it's just the historian in me, but I firmly believe
>> we need to
>> memorialize this blip in the database.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Andrea
>> "
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Paul Eggert <eggert at cs.ucla.edu
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/cs.ucla.edu__;!!BJMh1g!_tmD-94p_mY-w8Tlt_j2__Ybjmrxyw0rfsuOBZxNHKyBnSHoeNUsHlGCkYBlcR_-qaImhQp59mMckfPt$>>
>>
>> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2023 1:11 PM
>> To: Time zone mailing list <tz at iana.org
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/iana.org__;!!BJMh1g!_tmD-94p_mY-w8Tlt_j2__Ybjmrxyw0rfsuOBZxNHKyBnSHoeNUsHlGCkYBlcR_-qaImhQp59neaJGY-$>>
>>
>> Subject: [tz] Proposal to revert 2023b's Lebanon data
>> changes
>>
>> We need a new release soon to address the time zone chaos
>> in Lebanon.
>> One option is to revert 2023b's data and go back to 2023a
>> as I suggested
>> earlier. Another is to record the chaos in more detail in
>> the data. The
>> attached proposed patch (which I installed into the
>> developmental repository
>> on GitHub) takes the former approach, as I expect the
>> latter would cause
>> more problems than it would cure. This follows a similar
>> (although not
>> identical) precedent in Rio de Janeiro in 1993.
>>
>> In short, the patch would make 2023c identical to 2023a
>> except for comments,
>> which do not count as part of the data.
>>
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