[Ws2-staff_acct] Staff questionnaire to community

Wed Apr 19 02:39:37 UTC 2017

hi Greg, all:

The staff questions came in their reply to our questions, in December:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6MyPqTCjxXtVmxUeHBNbHFVMjA/view?usp=sharing

Avri and I have discussed this topic with ICANN staff (at Copenhagen and
since), and so I am assuming that George is asking as George, and / or an
ICANN Board member. The staff we've been dealing with have been clear that
they think a response to their questions would be helpful, and we've
contextualised it as hoping that responses will become available through
the work we are doing with the issues / resolution piece.

HTH.

cheers
Jordan

On 19 April 2017 at 14:31, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Was there any covering note when this was sent by staff?  It would good to
> understand the circumstances in which it was sent.  Depending on those
> circumstances, it might be good to acknowledge this and provide some
> preliminary responses to indicate how these questions will be explored in
> our work.  I tend to doubt that staff wanted the Subgroup to "air dirty
> laundry" in response to their questions -- I suspect they wanted to get a
> better idea of what we're doing and where we're going.  Obviously, we are
> not going to prejudge the work of the group -- this should be viewed as a
> piece of the larger discussion with staff on the issues of our group.
>
> One of the issues we have cited as an impediment to our work is the
> relative inability to have a constructive dialogue with, and input by,
> staff.  It seems to me that responding to this in a constructive, albeit
> preliminary, manner would be a step in the right direction.   Not
> responding, or responding by saying we added your questions to our issues
> list, and we'll get back to you when we're done, with answers, maybe, is
> not as positive a step.
>
> Greg
>
>
> *Greg Shatan *C: 917-816-6428
> S: gsshatan
> Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428 <06-845%209428>
> gregshatanipc at gmail.com
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 6:19 PM, Jordan Carter <jordan at internetnz.net.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> hi George
>>
>> To recap: we face a choice about whether to dig into "cases", or whether
>> to look at "issues".  The group has agreed to look at issues, validated by
>> cases, to avoid dragging past actions of individuals into the discussion.
>>
>> We can't do it both ways.
>>
>> Either we can avoid getting into specific cases in public, or not.
>>
>> If we want to avoid that (and I do, because I don't think it is
>> acceptable for this group to behave as some kind of star chamber, looking
>> at past actions and sitting in judgement on them), then we have two options:
>>
>> - look at systemic or broader issues INFORMED by those indiv experiences
>> - stop the work
>>
>> The latter isn't acceptable. So we are proceeding on the most reasonable
>> basis available.
>>
>>
>> The work approach, which you were present for the discussion about, is to:
>>
>> - surface the issues IDd by this v small group with the full CCWG
>> - validate or reject the "reality" or importance of the issues based on
>> that wider input
>> - make sure there are appropriate layers of solutions developed for the
>> issues
>> - pull the material together and conduct a community-wide consultation on
>> the package.
>>
>> My expectation is that this will leave us with a very small group of
>> issues and a very light set of changes recommended to how ICANN
>> a) provides a forum for people to raise concerns
>> b) shows that its staff accountability processes take account of
>> community feedback
>>
>> I haven't seen any evidence so far that warrants a more intrusive
>> outcome, but I do not want to jump the gun. We *have* to give the wider
>> group the opportunity to register the issues they have experienced. Or, to
>> show that there aren't any issues. I'm keeping an open mind on that.
>>
>> In doing that work of seeking input, we will then be in a position to
>> respond to the staff's request for detail and evidence. Or, to point them
>> in the direction to get it. Or, to respond that in our view it isn't
>> appropriate for us to do so.
>>
>> If ICANN as an organisation would like to take a different approach that
>> digs into specific cases, or solicits evidence of those from the community
>> for resolution or assessment, it is welcome to.  That's not what our group
>> is mandated to do.
>>
>>
>> A final point on timing. Yes, this group is running slower than planned.
>> We've had to adjust our work method to reflect the reality of volunteer
>> time and commitment, late criticism from you as a Board member (which
>> however valid, was still very late), and doing a proper job. There is no
>> way to change where we are at now.
>>
>> I'd request that you focus on what we do next, and how we bring this to a
>> conclusion, if you can.
>>
>>
>> best
>> Jordan
>>
>> On 19 April 2017 at 05:39, George Sadowsky <george.sadowsky at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Avri,
>>>
>>> I don't mean to be difficult, but it seems to me that the questions from
>>> staff are asking for concrete evidence regarding the existence and
>>> seriousness of issues.
>>>
>>> If you're saying that the group cannot answer staff's questions because
>>> it doesn't have any evidence with which to respond, I can understand that.
>>> However, then adding it to the issues list is really mixing apples and
>>> oranges; the staff questions are asking for evidence, not specifying
>>> issues.  It implies that the group really needs to spend time collecting
>>> evidence to decide whether the issues on the issues list are real issues or
>>> whether they should be discarded as non-issues.  It also implies that the
>>> work of the group is lagging substantially if it hasn't decided yet what
>>> are the real issues to be discussed with a view toward specific remedies
>>> for amelioration.
>>>
>>> I sense a tendency on the part of the group to avoid specifics and hard
>>> evidence, when this is precisely what you need to characterize the issues
>>> and verify that they are real.  I think that at some point you have to bite
>>> the bullet and get into specifics.
>>>
>>> Disabuse me of this, please.
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Apr 18, 2017, at 1:26 PM, avri doria <avri at apc.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Hi,
>>> >
>>> > As was mentioned on the call, their questions are being folded into the
>>> > issues list.
>>> >
>>> > The issues list is meant to collect "real problems that exist".
>>> >
>>> > It you think that there is an issue contained in the staff questions
>>> > that does not figure out in the issues lists, please point it out, and
>>> > better yet, add it to the issues list.
>>> >
>>> > At the end of the issues list resolution discussion and solution
>>> > finding, we can then perhaps answer their questions.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > avri
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 18-Apr-17 11:32, George Sadowsky wrote:
>>> >> Avri and Jordan,
>>> >>
>>> >> I ask this out of ignorance.
>>> >>
>>> >> Has there been a response from the working group to the questions
>>> that the staff addressed to the group (attached)?  If not, does it make
>>> sense to prepare such a response in order to sharpen the focus on real
>>> problems that exist?
>>> >>
>>> >> George
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>> >
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jordan Carter
>>
>> Chief Executive
>> *InternetNZ *
>>
>> +64-4-495-2118 <+64%204-495%202118> (office) | +64-21-442-649
>> <+64%2021%20442%20649> (mob) | Skype: jordancarter
>> jordan at InternetNZ.net.nz | www.InternetNZ.nz
>>
>> *A better world through a better Internet*
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>

-- 
Jordan Carter

Chief Executive
*InternetNZ *

+64-4-495-2118 (office) | +64-21-442-649 (mob) | Skype: jordancarter
jordan at InternetNZ.net.nz | www.InternetNZ.nz

*A better world through a better Internet*
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