[Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Javier Rua javrua at gmail.com
Sat May 5 00:05:14 UTC 2018


Robin,

Thank you (and Greg) for your thoughtful answers!

Javier Rúa-Jovet
ALAC

+1-787-396-6511
twitter: @javrua
skype: javier.rua1
https://www.linkedin.com/in/javrua 


> On May 4, 2018, at 7:30 PM, Robin Gross <robin at ipjustice.org> wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Javier.  I think Greg has already alluded to one fruitful way forward in evaluating these competing interests, which is to evaluate the intended use of TLD.  And I would add, in particular, to evaluate if the applicant intends to misrepresent their connection or authority with respect to the geo term at issue.  We can allow legitimate uses, while also preventing those intending to misrepresent themselves as being connected to a govt when they aren’t, which is a concern we all share.  And it would keep ICANN clear of having to take sides or otherwise weigh-in on the multiplicity of hot button political issues, eager to utilize such a lever of control over the Internet, thereby endangering ICANN’s independence and neutrality (and ultimately its legitimacy).
> 
> The initial policy that was approved by both the board and the GNSO in accordance with ICANN’s bylaws was to use the standard objection process set forth in the New GTLD Program, which applied to all applicants and all others with a competing interest in the term.  I see no reason why a standard objection process, which applies to everyone, could not be used as a basis for evaluating those claims further, and in particular look at whether the applicant is engaged in misrepresentation with the intended use of the TLD.  That would be a better starting place rather than the non-objection letter process, which again, was hastily developed by staff after the first policy was approved by the GNSO and Board, and which changed that approved policy significantly.  
> 
> I’d also be curious to hear others thoughts.
> 
> Thanks,
> Robin
> 
> 
>> On May 4, 2018, at 11:35 AM, Javier Rua <javrua at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Robin, Jorge, All,
>> 
>> Thanks for your thoughtful comments. The mail-list has been very interesting and enlightening today, and in previous days also.  As discussed in the last call, all these threads have been and will  continue to be incorporated in a document to memorialize them and try and find ways forward from a policy perspective.
>> 
>> Robin, what could be a practicable alternative or general way forward to change the current “non-objection” scheme, which somehow takes into account all these competing public and private interests?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Javier Rúa-Jovet
>> ALAC
>> 
>> +1-787-396-6511
>> twitter: @javrua
>> skype: javier.rua1
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/javrua 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 4, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Robin Gross <robin at ipjustice.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear Jorge,
>>> 
>>> But this really isn’t about “getting at a table” with equals, this is a policy which gives one party the unilateral veto right over all others for a TLD.  Which means the applicant has to go begging to the govt(s) for a non-objection letter.  Of course "nothing gets you nothing” in this world, so the govt is now empowered to extract conditions, including possibly payments from the applicant in order to obtain that letter permitting the TLD to proceed.  Even in cases where the TLD is not going to be used to refer to the geo meaning or to misrepresent a connection to the term, that letter is required.  No doubt govts want to require as many people as possible must "get at the table" since that means more people must pay govts for TLDs to go forward.  The more one looks at it, it appears the non-objection letter is a type of "extortion scheme" for TLDs, bad policy for a free and open Internet.  And the policy wasn’t something that the GNSO actually approved in the last round.  It was one of those post-approval board-staff "implementation details" that went off the rails due to intense govt pressure to ignore the GNSO-approved policy on the issue and give govts more power at ICANN anyway.  The policy must be reconsidered for both of these reasons.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Robin
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 4, 2018, at 10:18 AM, <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Jon
>>>> I cannot speak for all 2000+ cities in Switzerland ;-)
>>>> They have rights on their name but I guess that getting at a table with them would be fruitful.
>>>> best
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Von: Jon Nevett <jon at donuts.email>
>>>> Datum: 4. Mai 2018 um 19:00:29 MESZ
>>>> An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>
>>>> Cc: paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com <paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>, alexander at schubert.berlin <alexander at schubert.berlin>, gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> Jorge:
>>>> 
>>>> Do you think that applicant should have to talk to the city and get a non-objection letter if the applicant was not using the TLD in a way at all related to the city?  I don't have a problem with letters of non-objection in cases where the TLD is being targeted to the city population itself, but not in every instance.  For example, in the case of Arch, Switzerland, do you think that the Swiss municipality should have veto rights on whether a group of architects could secure .ARCH to collect and display photos of interesting arches around the world or whether the Arch Insurance Co in New Jersey, US should be able to have a TLD for its network of brokers?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> Jon
>>>> 
>>>> On May 4, 2018, at 12:48 PM, <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Dear Paul
>>>> That is probably a strange way of seeing things. The brand holder would have only an interest worth protecting if the string is used by someone else in commerce, in the same category of product or service, and consumer confusion is at stake.
>>>> The city under Swiss law has a right to sue against the use of its name, without such strings attached, i.e. it is a more ample right.
>>>> But again, what is key here is that the applicant needs to talk to the city with that very name and get at least its non-objection. Everything else is an invitation for protracted conflicts as we have seen in some cases NOT subject to this instrument...
>>>> best
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Von: Paul Rosenzweig <paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>>
>>>> Datum: 4. Mai 2018 um 18:04:30 MESZ
>>>> An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>, gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com> <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>, alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin><alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>>
>>>> Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>
>>>> Betreff: RE: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, I understand the difference.  But what gives one priority over the
>>>> other.  You are, in effect, arguing that the civil code of Switzerland
>>>> should take precedence in our judgment to the trademark code of Great
>>>> Britain, say.    Indeed, to my mind the narrower more focused right should
>>>> generally be thought of as taking precedence since it is less limiting of
>>>> others.
>>>> 
>>>> Paul Rosenzweig
>>>> M: +1 (202) 329-9650
>>>> VOIP: +1 (202) 738 1739
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, May
>>>> To: paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>; gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>;
>>>> alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>
>>>> Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
>>>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> Dear Paul
>>>> The difference, being simple, is that a trademark gives you a limited
>>>> protection regarding a term for certain products and services, when there
>>>> might be a confusion for consumers (Nick from Nominet explained it much
>>>> better).
>>>> The right under the civil code on the name of a city is general in its
>>>> scope, not limited to commercial issues, not limited to specific products
>>>> and services and not focused on consumer protection.
>>>> Best
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Von: Paul Rosenzweig <paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>>
>>>> Datum: 4. Mai 2018 um 17:27:55 MESZ
>>>> An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>,
>>>> gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com> <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>, alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>
>>>> <alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>>
>>>> Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>
>>>> Betreff: RE: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> Why is it qualitatively different?  And if it is qualitatively different
>>>> what body of law gives one type of right priority over another?
>>>> 
>>>> Paul
>>>> 
>>>> Paul Rosenzweig
>>>> M: +1 (202) 329-9650
>>>> VOIP: +1 (202) 738 1739
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>> On Behalf
>>>> Of Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 10:54 AM
>>>> To: gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>; alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>
>>>> Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> Dear Greg
>>>> Luzern has a right on the name as such under civil right, which is
>>>> qualitatively different.
>>>> Best
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Von: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>
>>>> Datum: 4. Mai 2018 um 16:44:19 MESZ
>>>> An: alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin> <alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>>
>>>> Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> Alexander,
>>>> 
>>>> You seem to be confusing how patents work and how trademarks work.  Patents
>>>> can accurately be characterized as a “right to exclude.”  Trademarks cannot.
>>>> The company has positive rights in LUCERNE.
>>>> 
>>>> When enforcing that trademark, the owners of LUCERNE can seek to stop use or
>>>> registration of a mark that raises a “likelihood of confusion” — basically,
>>>> the same or similar mark for the same or related goods and services, and for
>>>> goods and services in the “natural zone of expansion.”  I’m not saying they
>>>> have the right to stop EVERYBODY nor should they, but then again, neither
>>>> should Luzern.
>>>> 
>>>> Greg
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 10:31 AM Alexander Schubert
>>>> <alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>> wrote:
>>>> Greg,
>>>> 
>>>> Lucerne Foods, Inc. (an American legal entity) might have acquired trade
>>>> mark rights in the United States of America – but NOT for “LUCERNE”! The
>>>> trade mark protection prevents the commercial usage of the trade-marked
>>>> string “lucerne” - FOR A VERY NARROW SELECTION OF SERVICES AND GOODS. It’s
>>>> rather the services and goods that you protect – FOR a certain string. The
>>>> string itself is free to use by anybody for everything (minus the few goods
>>>> and services trade-marked).
>>>> 
>>>> And nobody says that “governments think the rights of governments come
>>>> first” – it is THE PEOPLE who come first of course – and Governments are
>>>> merely representing them.
>>>> 
>>>> Alexander
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> [mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bou
>>>> nces at icann.org<mailto:nces at icann.org>>] On Behalf Of Greg Shatan
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2018 9:08 AM
>>>> To: Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>
>>>> Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
>>>> 
>>>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> Of course Lucerne Foods has a right on Lucerne.  More precisely, they have
>>>> legitimate interests in and a legal right to Lucerne.  And they have
>>>> trademark registrations for LUCERNE.  As with any registration they specify
>>>> goods and services. That doesn’t make their rights less valid.
>>>> 
>>>> Can you clarify if you believe that the hypothetical applicant for .sandwich
>>>> should be required to get letters of support or nonobjective from Sandwich,
>>>> Mass and Sandwich, England? Thank you.
>>>> 
>>>> Greg
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 1:43 AM
>>>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>> wrote:
>>>> Dear Greg
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for your reply. “Lucerne Foods” has no right on “Lucerne” – it most
>>>> probably just has a trademark for “lucerne foods” in very specific
>>>> categories of products and services (food related I guess).
>>>> 
>>>> In Switzerland (“Lucerne” as such) would in fact be barred from registration
>>>> as a business name (as I have said). And the city of Lucerne has a right on
>>>> its name pursuant 29 Civil Code, so it has clearly a good legal ground to
>>>> challenge the delegation of the unique resource “.lucerne”.
>>>> 
>>>> But beyond the Swiss legal system, the delegation of the unique resource
>>>> which is a city’s name will give rise to political sensitivities, whatever
>>>> the “intended use”. You need that city government on board. Otherwise you
>>>> will have a political problem – which is quite natural as city governments
>>>> have responsibilities, and the name of their city is their main identifier.
>>>> 
>>>> Best
>>>> 
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> Von: Greg Shatan
>>>> [mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>]
>>>> Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Mai 2018 07:36
>>>> An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM
>>>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>
>>>> 
>>>> Cc: Liz Williams
>>>> <liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>; Icann Gnso
>>>> Newgtld Wg Wt5
>>>> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> Uniqueness does not convey primacy upon governments.
>>>> 
>>>> TLDs may be unique, but that does not mean that governments should get a
>>>> "Trump Card" to block any use of a string with (among other things) a
>>>> geographic meaning.  I can understand why governments think the rights of
>>>> governments come first, but that's not going to get us very far.
>>>> 
>>>> "Use" is absolutely important -- it goes to whether a legitimate right is
>>>> being exercised or infringed.
>>>> 
>>>> If Lucerne Foods
>>>> (<http://>www.lucernefoods.com<http://www.lucernefoods.com/><http://www.lucernefoods.com<http://www.lucernefoods.com/><http://www.lucernefoods.co<http://www.lucernefoods.co/>
>>>> m<http://www.lucernefoods.com<http://www.lucernefoods.com/>>>), one of
>>>> the world's largest food producers, wants to apply for .lucerne, they should
>>>> have the right to do so, without interference from Luzern.  (I assume they
>>>> have lucernefoods.com<http://lucernefoods.com/><http://lucernefoods.com<http://lucernefoods.com/>> because
>>>> www.lucerne.com<http://www.lucerne.com/><http://www.lucerne.com<http://www.lucerne.com/>> was already taken.)
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Greg
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 1:23 AM,
>>>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>> wrote:
>>>> Dear Greg and all,
>>>> 
>>>> „Sandwich“ may be a nice example, but fact is that, as I explained, the
>>>> “use” is not really important, as we only have one string with that city
>>>> name – TLDs are unique.
>>>> 
>>>> Therefore, whatever the intended use (a can of worms on its own btw), the
>>>> unique TLD with the “city name” would be delegated. Think on “.shanghai”
>>>> delegated for a “non geo-use”. Who would say that would have no
>>>> implications, that would not arise no political sensitivities?
>>>> 
>>>> But getting back to my country, if “.luzern” were to be applied for,
>>>> intending a “non-geo use”, I would very well understand that this would
>>>> bring about not only political issues but also legal challenges in our
>>>> country (based on Art. 29 civil code).
>>>> 
>>>> All this is avoided if you acknowledge the facts (TLDs are unique and
>>>> political sensitivities are there) and try to put everyone at the table. The
>>>> non-objection letter does that. It may be improved, based on factual issues
>>>> detected in the 2012 round – btw: we should of course consult all parties in
>>>> those issues and get first-hand information from the applicants and public
>>>> authorities involved – just basing our analysis on hearsay, opinions or
>>>> third-party reports would not be appropriate (Greg, you will remember that
>>>> in the “jurisdiction Subgroup” of the CCWG Accountability we followed the
>>>> same path of only looking at first hand evidence…).
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards
>>>> 
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> Von: Greg Shatan
>>>> [mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>]
>>>> Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Mai 2018 07:07
>>>> An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><http://kom.admin.ch<http://kom.admin.ch/>>>
>>>> Cc: Liz Williams
>>>> <liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>; Icann Gnso
>>>> Newgtld Wg Wt5
>>>> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>
>>>> 
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> The burden of non-objection is "fairly" put on the applicant (if at all)
>>>> only if the intended use of the gTLD is as a "geo TLD."  If the applied-for
>>>> string is going to be used for other purposes, there should be no
>>>> opportunity for a non-applicant to block an application.  (If the "place" is
>>>> another applicant, that's an entirely different situation that I am not
>>>> covering in this email.)
>>>> 
>>>> Consider an application for .sandwich as a gTLD geared toward domains for
>>>> sandwich restaurants, sandwich recipe sites, sandwich fans, sandwich
>>>> historians, sellers of sandwich ingredients (meats, cheeses, breads,
>>>> condiments, etc.) or sandwich implements (panini presses, toaster ovens,
>>>> etc.).  Sandwich, England and Sandwich, Mass. (and the Earl of Sandwich)
>>>> should have no say in the matter.
>>>> 
>>>> This is analogous to the treatment of brands.  If Delta Faucets applies for
>>>> .Delta, Delta Van Lines has no basis for an objection -- because Delta
>>>> Faucets has a legitimate right.  Delta Van Lines option is to apply or not
>>>> to apply (even if it is only a "defensive application").  This is a
>>>> practical and time-tested model that we should use for strings with
>>>> geographic and other meanings, at least where the gTLDs use is not as a "geo
>>>> TLD".
>>>> 
>>>> Greg
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 12:56 AM,
>>>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>> wrote:
>>>> Dear Liz
>>>> 
>>>> The burden to obtain the non-objection is fairly put on the applicant, who
>>>> has, as you also say, a direct interest in avoiding objections.
>>>> 
>>>> The city governments of this world (we have 2000+ in tiny Switzerland),
>>>> whose name is applied to by an applicant in a widely unknown setting which
>>>> is ICANN cannot be expected to be privy to such procedures and to be
>>>> monitoring the rounds of applications. This is of course much more difficult
>>>> for developing and large countries, whose cities may realize one day that
>>>> their name was taken as a TLD in a process they did not know, because they
>>>> did not „object“.
>>>> 
>>>> To the larger point: you argue/assert that the non-objection letter should
>>>> not be continued. Alas you have produced no factual basis that would warrant
>>>> that, beyond one case (africa) where the problems were of an unrelated
>>>> character, another (amazon) that did NOT fall under the non objection rule,
>>>> which leaves us with one case (tata) where issues may be analyzed and
>>>> addressed without changing the system and putting the incentive structure
>>>> completely upside-down.
>>>> 
>>>> More broadly speaking, ICANN cannot just ignore the political sensitivities,
>>>> which are backed by different policies, laws etc. depending on the
>>>> corresponding country. You need their representatives at the table and
>>>> non-objecting if you want to avoid protracted issues. These kinds of issues
>>>> only would grow if you gerrymander those public authorities out of the game.
>>>> 
>>>> best regards
>>>> 
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Von: Liz Williams
>>>> <liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>
>>>> Datum: 4. Mai 2018 um 00:48:00 MESZ
>>>> An: leonard obonyo via Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> Hello everyone
>>>> 
>>>> This thread has brought out some really interesting ideas.  I may have a
>>>> simpler solution because what we are really talking about, in many cases, is
>>>> backward looking difficult history from which we need to move on.  We should
>>>> not be satisfied with a 2007 policy and a 2012 implementation if it
>>>> continues to “allow” bad policy to chase “poor” implementation.
>>>> 
>>>> I may have a solution though because what we are essentially talking about
>>>> also is how a interested stakeholder can express “objection” to something.
>>>> I would like to see the end of the “non-objection” process all together, for
>>>> reasons explained in other posts.  However, “objecting to an application" is
>>>> still a legitimate course of action for someone to take if they don’t want
>>>> something to happen.  Here are the steps.
>>>> 
>>>> 1.  If you support something, say so.  This is really up to an applicant to
>>>> do the footwork to demonstrate in an application that this has taken place.
>>>> We can then think on implementation elements of what that could look like.
>>>> 
>>>> 2.  If you don’t object to something, allow it to happen.  If you change
>>>> your mind, you must do it within agreed strict time parameters see point 3.
>>>> (Non-Objection letters will be a thing of the past).
>>>> 
>>>> 3.  If you do object, make an appropriately framed objection whoever you
>>>> are.  Within that objection process, refer to international law, domestic
>>>> law, ISO standards and so on that are relevant to the applicant & the
>>>> application.   This takes out the endless discussion here about what should
>>>> be referred to which causes such trouble.
>>>> 
>>>> The applicant takes responsibility for ensuring that they submit an
>>>> application which addresses those points and avoids an objection (all
>>>> applicants are highly motivated to avoid objections).  An objector must use
>>>> those standards;  pay for making the objection and submit it within
>>>> appropriate time frames.  Evaluators then take those objections into account
>>>> in evaluation.  An objector (whoever they are) must accept that their
>>>> objection may be discarded by evaluators.
>>>> 
>>>> Then we can close off the endless circular differences between jurisdictions
>>>> and we focus on the real work that takes place for an applicant in an
>>>> application process.
>>>> 
>>>> I look forward to hearing more from colleagues because this could apply to
>>>> a) any application and b) geographic terms in particular.   Our policy
>>>> recommendation then comes around to open process, objective criteria,
>>>> assumption of compliance with law, competition and innovation.  The points
>>>> above are then implementation guidelines that improve an AGB.
>>>> 
>>>> Liz
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ….
>>>> Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs
>>>> .au Domain Administration Ltd
>>>> M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757
>>>> E:
>>>> liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.william
>>>> s at auda.org.au<mailto:s at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>
>>>> www.auda.org.au<http://www.auda.org.au><http://www.auda.org.au><http://www.auda.org.au>
>>>> 
>>>> Important Notice
>>>> This email may contain information which is confidential and/or subject to
>>>> legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee only. If
>>>> you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or copy any
>>>> part of this email. If you have received this email by mistake, please
>>>> notify the sender and delete this message immediately.
>>>> 
>>>> On 4 May 2018, at 4:50 am, Mike Rodenbaugh
>>>> <mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<
>>>> mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe Staff can help compile any such laws and cases related to domains?  We
>>>> should deal with concrete examples, as I have given re 4 TLD applications
>>>> from the last round.
>>>> 
>>>> Mike Rodenbaugh
>>>> RODENBAUGH LAW
>>>> tel/fax:  +1.415.738.8087
>>>> http://rodenbaugh.com<http://rodenbaugh.com/>
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 10:32 AM,
>>>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorg
>>>> e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>> wrote:
>>>> Dear Mike
>>>> There are similar laws in other countries. For Switzerland you can look it
>>>> up online quite easily (in various languages). There is case-law but I guess
>>>> the court decisions will be in German and French.
>>>> Besides, limits to register solely city names and other geographic terms as
>>>> such as trademarks or business names are also common...
>>>> On the other hand, as said before, rights on brands are limited to specific
>>>> categories of products and services...
>>>> In the end, as said, you have different interests converging on a single
>>>> string, where in our opinion the public interest is paramount.
>>>> Best
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Von: Mike Rodenbaugh
>>>> <mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<
>>>> mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>>
>>>> Datum: 3. Mai 2018 um 19:26:08 MESZ
>>>> An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM
>>>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorg
>>>> e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>
>>>> Cc: Gregory S. Shatan
>>>> <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanip
>>>> c at gmail.com<mailto:c at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>>,
>>>> mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mail
>>>> to:mmoll at ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net>>>
>>>> <mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mai
>>>> lto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net>>>>,
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>
>>>> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> I would like to see the text of such laws, and any cases that apply them to
>>>> domain names.  I guess there might be one in France too, but I haven't dug
>>>> into the particulars of the French legal proceedings re
>>>> France.com<http://France.com><http://France.com>.
>>>> 
>>>> Mike Rodenbaugh
>>>> RODENBAUGH LAW
>>>> tel/fax:  +1.415.738.8087
>>>> http://rodenbaugh.com<http://rodenbaugh.com/>
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 10:19 AM,
>>>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorg
>>>> e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Ca
>>>> ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@
>>>> bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>> wrote:
>>>> Dear Mike
>>>> I mentioned some, eg in Switzerland cities have rights to protect their
>>>> names under the civil code (art. 29), and provisions prevent the
>>>> registration of business names and trademarks that solely consist of city
>>>> names.
>>>> best
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Von: Mike Rodenbaugh
>>>> <mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<
>>>> mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbau
>>>> gh.com<http://gh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>>>
>>>> Datum: 3. Mai 2018 um 19:06:27 MESZ
>>>> An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM
>>>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorg
>>>> e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Ca
>>>> ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@
>>>> bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>>
>>>> Cc: Gregory S. Shatan
>>>> <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanip
>>>> c at gmail.com<mailto:c at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<
>>>> mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregsh
>>>> atanipc at gmail.com<mailto:atanipc at gmail.com>>>>>,
>>>> mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mail
>>>> to:mmoll at ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>
>>>> <mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>
>>>> <mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mai
>>>> lto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net
>>>> <mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>>,
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>
>>>> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> Jorge, what law provides for governments to claim superior rights to
>>>> geographic (or any other) domain names?  I am not aware of any, so am eager
>>>> to be enlightened if they exist.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Mike
>>>> 
>>>> Mike Rodenbaugh
>>>> RODENBAUGH LAW
>>>> tel/fax:  +1.415.738.8087
>>>> http://rodenbaugh.com<http://rodenbaugh.com/>
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:49 AM,
>>>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorg
>>>> e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Ca
>>>> ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@
>>>> bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak
>>>> om.admin.ch<http://om.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad
>>>> min.ch<http://min.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.
>>>> ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<ma
>>>> ilto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch>>>>>> wrote:
>>>> Dear Mike
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for your input.
>>>> 
>>>> In the end we have different bodies, entities etc. holding interests on one
>>>> single string. In our view (Swiss perspective), public interest provides for
>>>> clear limits to private monopolization over geographic names such as city
>>>> names – this is reflected in law.
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards
>>>> 
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Von: Mike Rodenbaugh
>>>> [mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbau
>>>> gh.com<http://gh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at r
>>>> odenbaugh.com<http://odenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>><mail
>>>> to:mike at rodenbaugh.com<http://rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.co
>>>> m<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenb
>>>> augh.com<http://augh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>>>]
>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Mai 2018 09:49
>>>> An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM
>>>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorg
>>>> e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Ca
>>>> ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@
>>>> bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak
>>>> om.admin.ch<http://om.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad
>>>> min.ch<http://min.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.
>>>> ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<ma
>>>> ilto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch>>>>>>
>>>> Cc: Gregory S. Shatan
>>>> <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanip
>>>> c at gmail.com<mailto:c at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<
>>>> mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregsh
>>>> atanipc at gmail.com<mailto:atanipc at gmail.com>>>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gma
>>>> il.com<http://il.com>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mail
>>>> to:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatan
>>>> ipc at gmail.com<mailto:ipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>>>>;
>>>> mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mail
>>>> to:mmoll at ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>
>>>> <mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inte
>>>> r.net<http://r.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.i
>>>> nter.net<http://nter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll
>>>> @ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>>;
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gns
>>>> o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> Governments also have infinite, obvious alternatives to <.city> TLDs, such
>>>> as <.citygovernment>, <.citycouncil>, <.citytourism>, etc.  Perhaps
>>>> surprisingly, governments have managed to survive for the past 30 years even
>>>> though they have not had the legal the right to "their"
>>>> <city.com<http://city.com><http://city.com><http://city.com/><http://city.com<http://city.com
>>>> />><http://city.com<http://city.com/>>> or even <city.ccTLD> second level
>>>> domain names.  They still have no such legal right at any level of the DNS.
>>>> Some governments' fantasy to own such rights is just that, fantasy.
>>>> 
>>>> To be sure, ICANN is not the proper body to grant governments such a right.
>>>> But unfortunately, ICANN went far too far in the last round kowtowing to
>>>> governments, and requiring the "non-objection" letter.  That led to outright
>>>> extortion by such well known geographic areas as SPA and BAR, among others,
>>>> who had nothing more that a fantasy to control TLD rights to that name, plus
>>>> ICANN's ill-advised, non-community-consensus requirement of the
>>>> non-objection letter.  As I recall (and I could be wrong and will eat my
>>>> shoe), that was an ICANN Staff implementation gift, not part of the
>>>> consensus policy passed by GNSO and the Board.  Even if it was, it was
>>>> ill-advised then, and should be eliminated for future rounds.
>>>> 
>>>> Country codes have been given special status in the DNS with ccTLDs and
>>>> correspondent restrictions at the second level of the New gTLDs.  That was
>>>> an original gift to national governments, extended stupidly to the second
>>>> level by ICANN in the last round, solely to appease government
>>>> obstructionists in that last round.  Subsidiary governments need to get over
>>>> this; they don't have further rights to "their" name in the DNS.  Period.
>>>> 
>>>> Paris, France has no greater rights to .PARIS than Paris, Texas.  Or Paris
>>>> Hilton.  Period.  But I would love to hear them fight out that issue.  ICANN
>>>> certainly should not have predetermined it in favor of France or Texas, to
>>>> the detriment of Ms. Hilton (and so many other legitimate users of the word
>>>> Paris).  All three of those parties (at least) had equal rights to that TLD,
>>>> and should have been put into a contention set to resolve it.
>>>> 
>>>> In substantial part, governments continue to rehash arguments made by IGOs
>>>> in the various IGO Names policy discussions.  Those IGOs get nowhere with
>>>> the broader GNSO community because they only have fantasy rights to "their"
>>>> names (in many cases) and acronyms (in almost all cases).  So they scream to
>>>> the Board and have delayed finality in those discussions for half a decade
>>>> already.  But the GNSO is never going to agree with them, and the GNSO has
>>>> primary TLD policy responsibility under the Bylaws, not the GAC.
>>>> Eventually, the Board must side with the GNSO, though they will put that off
>>>> forever if they can, as they have done with IGO Names issues.
>>>> 
>>>> This GNSO group ought not be considering government pressure or fantasy
>>>> rights.  If the Board wants to do so, that is their prerogative.  We need to
>>>> develop policy in the real world, where governments coexist with businesses
>>>> and other users of "their" names.  They have done so for 30 years.  I am
>>>> confident in stating that not a single government has fallen, nor even been
>>>> harmed, by the ability of absolutely anyone to register "their" name at the
>>>> second level or at the top level.  Until any such harm is shown, why are we
>>>> even discussing this?  What problem are we trying to solve, exactly?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Mike Rodenbaugh
>>>> RODENBAUGH LAW
>>>> tel/fax:  +1.415.738.8087
>>>> http://rodenbaugh.com<http://rodenbaugh.com/>
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 11:28 PM,
>>>> <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorg
>>>> e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Ca
>>>> ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@
>>>> bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak
>>>> om.admin.ch<http://om.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad
>>>> min.ch<http://min.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.
>>>> ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<ma
>>>> ilto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch>>>>>> wrote:
>>>> Dear all
>>>> 
>>>> The fundamental flaw with such an approach is that it forgets that TLDs are
>>>> unique. There can be only one TLD with a given city name. there can be only
>>>> one delegation of such a string.
>>>> 
>>>> City governments have political, social, historical, economic and legal
>>>> responsibilities over their cities, and have (at least in Switzerland and
>>>> other countries) rights on the names of their cities. There might be several
>>>> cities with the same name, but under the 2012 AGB you had to obtain the
>>>> non-objection from all of them if that was the case.
>>>> 
>>>> As for brands there may be unlimited numbers of business names and
>>>> trademarks that use a given city name, usually as part of their names (e.g.
>>>> City “insurances”, City “salami”, City “whatever”…) and with figurative
>>>> elements beyond the name as such (the color, the font, symbols, etc.). For
>>>> instance in Switzerland you are not allowed to register a city name as such
>>>> as a business name – because this would mean that a private business is
>>>> monopolizing that geographic name.
>>>> 
>>>> Hence the crux, resolved in 2012 by the non-objection letter, was that
>>>> several interests (public interests of a wide spectrum represented by the
>>>> cities, community interests and multiple commercial interests in the form of
>>>> brands) may converge on one string, one city name, one TLD.
>>>> 
>>>> The non-objection letter was and is in our view a good way to get the more
>>>> specific interests backing one application to a table with those who
>>>> represent the corresponding city (and its public policy interests), in order
>>>> to try to arrive at a mutually acceptable solution…
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards
>>>> 
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> Von: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> [mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bou
>>>> nces at icann.org<mailto:nces at icann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-new
>>>> gtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bo
>>>> unces at icann.org<mailto:unces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>><mailto:gnso-
>>>> newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.or
>>>> g><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-b
>>>> ounces at icann.org<mailto:ounces at icann.org>>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-
>>>> newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.o
>>>> rg<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>>>] Im Auftrag von Greg
>>>> Shatan
>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Mai 2018 06:27
>>>> An: Marita Moll
>>>> <mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mai
>>>> lto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net
>>>> <mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.int
>>>> er.net<http://er.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.
>>>> inter.net<http://inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmol
>>>> l at ca.inter.net<mailto:l at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>>>
>>>> Cc: Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5
>>>> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> We need to distinguish between two major groups of potential use cases that
>>>> arise when there is an application for a string that (among other things) is
>>>> a geographic term:
>>>> 
>>>> 1.  The Geo Case:  The case where a new gTLD applicant want to operate the
>>>> gTLD as a "geographic" TLD (e.g., .berlin, .nyc, .africa) 2.  The Non-Geo
>>>> Case: The case where a new gTLD wants to operate the gTLD as something other
>>>> than a geographic TLD -- a .brand, a generic gTLD, a restricted gTLD (e.g.,
>>>> .tata, .spa, .amazon, .patagonia)
>>>> 
>>>> For the Geo Case, it may be that there are few instances where
>>>> support/non-objection letters caused problems in the 2012 round.  One
>>>> "problem" instance is .africa.  One would have to look at the universe of
>>>> cases to determine whether all the rest worked well or not.
>>>> 
>>>> For the Non-Geo Case, it is clear that there were multiple instances where
>>>> support/non-objection letters or similar exercises of power did cause
>>>> problems.  We can start with all four of the examples I've cited above.  I
>>>> would be curious to know if there were Non-Geo Cases that didn't have
>>>> problems.
>>>> 
>>>> I think we have to consider these use cases separately.  The considerations
>>>> that apply when a TLD will be operated as a geo TLD (e.g., Roma for Romans)
>>>> do not apply when the TLD will be operated for other purposes (e.g.,
>>>> .sandwich for a food-related TLD -- Sandwich, MA was incorporated in 1639
>>>> and named after Sandwich, England, which is obviously older).  Blending them
>>>> together just obscures the issues.
>>>> 
>>>> Greg
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 12:30 PM, Marita Moll
>>>> <mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mai
>>>> lto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net
>>>> <mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.int
>>>> er.net<http://er.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.
>>>> inter.net<http://inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmol
>>>> l at ca.inter.net<mailto:l at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, cities can have long history in older cultures -- wars were fought and
>>>> people died over them.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In Canada, municipal governments are subdivisions of their province. While
>>>> they have autonomy on most decisions, all by-laws passed are subject to
>>>> change by the provincial government at any time. So cities exist at the
>>>> pleasure of the provincial governments.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Leaves one to wonder if the province could deny the city the right to it's
>>>> TLD.:-( This is a pretty slippery slope......
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marita
>>>> 
>>>> On 5/2/2018 11:17 AM, Yrjö Länsipuro wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Cities have been founded, incorporated and given various privileges -
>>>> including their names - in the course of history by kings and emperors and
>>>> other assorted authorities, and in my non-lawyer´s mind, documents attesting
>>>> to those acts, scribbled on parchment or whatever, are the legal basis. More
>>>> important, from end-users´ point of view, is the political ownership felt by
>>>> the citizens.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> For reference,  attached please find an excerpt of the founding document  of
>>>> my home city Tampere/Tammerfors in 1779, signed by king Gustaf III.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Yrjö
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> [cid:image001.png at 01D3E2D4.C11E9F30]
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at ic
>>>> ann.org<http://ann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg
>>>> -wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:wt5-bounces at icann.org>>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto
>>>> :gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at i
>>>> cann.org<http://cann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>>><mailto:gnso-newgtl
>>>> d-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:d-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mai
>>>> lto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces
>>>> @icann.org<http://icann.org>>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtl
>>>> d-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:d-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mai
>>>> lto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>>>> on behalf of Alexander
>>>> Schubert
>>>> <alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin><mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander
>>>> @schubert.berlin>>><mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schube
>>>> rt.berlin><mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin
>>>> <mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin><mailto
>>>> :alexander at schubert.berlin<mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin><mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>>>>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 5:16 PM
>>>> To:
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gns
>>>> o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Dear Greg,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> You write:
>>>>      “…..but a ‘first right’ based on a geographic name is troublesome on
>>>> several levels. But one fundamental question jumps out -- what right is this
>>>> first right based on?”
>>>> 
>>>> If we talk about sizeable (or otherwise “important”) cities:
>>>> 
>>>> Nobody has a “first right” obviously. Why should anybody. But if a string is
>>>> (should be) poised to serve as identifier for a sizeable amount of people
>>>> (e.g. larger cities) – I think we do not have to search for “international
>>>> law”; it should be self-evident that such an infrastructure resource like a
>>>> city-gTLD is NOT assigned lightly to “some entity” – but that the
>>>> representatives of the city are looped in. There is morality and a “sense of
>>>> common good” OUTSIDE of established law. At least in Good Old Europe.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> But I completely agree with you if we talk about “minor” geographical
>>>> entities – such as a small stream or a hill. Or a tiny dwelling somewhere in
>>>> the nowhere. Especially if there is an entity that is MUCH better known to
>>>> the public (e.g. a well-known brand  vs. a small mountain) or if it is
>>>> identical to a generic term: “.new” and the New River.
>>>> 
>>>> The big question is: How do we policy the line that separates the entities
>>>> that deserve “protection” from the rest? A repository? Lists of any sort?
>>>> Population size? Or maybe a panel that decides case by case (caution: Beauty
>>>> contest alarm)? But having no protections at all is not going to work. To
>>>> LOWER the already low bar is bonkers in my mind. I wish GAC would pay more
>>>> attention – there are forces trying to take away DNS infrastructure from The
>>>> People.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Alexander.berlin
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> [mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bou
>>>> nces at icann.org<mailto:nces at icann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-new
>>>> gtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bo
>>>> unces at icann.org<mailto:unces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>>] On Behalf
>>>> Of Greg Shatan
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 7:42 AM
>>>> To: David Cake
>>>> <dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto
>>>> :dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mail
>>>> to:dave at davecake.net<http://davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net>>>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<m
>>>> ailto:dave at davecake.net<http://davecake.net>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>
>>>> <mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net
>>>> <mailto:dave at davecake.net>>>>
>>>> Cc: leonard obonyo via Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>><mailto
>>>> :gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:
>>>> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:g
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I find myself generally in agreement with Liz Williams.  There are more
>>>> nuances to unpack than I have time for, but a "first right" based on a
>>>> geographic name is troublesome on several levels. But one fundamental
>>>> question jumps out -- what right is this first right based on?  Is there a
>>>> legal basis for this?  (Jorge tells us that his government would make a
>>>> decision "based on law", so it would be useful to know what law we're
>>>> talking about.)  Requiring a "letter of support or non-objection" is also
>>>> troublesome and not just for the reasons Liz mentions.  (I hope we do not
>>>> have to pore through each of the letters of support/non-objection from the
>>>> first round to highlight the problems they cause, but if we are going to,
>>>> this should be a job for the WG as a whole, not an assignment for Liz.)  I
>>>> recognize that, as Jorge say, it "works well for governments."  Well, of
>>>> course it does!  It completely favors governments, and was imposed by
>>>> governments (i.e., the GAC).  The problem is that it doesn't work well for
>>>> anyone else, and it is not well-grounded in the rule of law (unless we are
>>>> thinking of something akin to the droit de seigneur, or perhaps the Divine
>>>> Right of Kings).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I don't know if I'll be able to be on any part of the call starting shortly,
>>>> since it is running from 1-2:30 am my time, and I don't do well on 4 hours
>>>> of sleep....  If am not, please accept my apologies.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Greg
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:48 PM, David Cake
>>>> <dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto
>>>> :dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mail
>>>> to:dave at davecake.net<http://davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net>>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<ma
>>>> ilto:dave at davecake.net<http://davecake.net>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>><
>>>> mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<
>>>> mailto:dave at davecake.net>>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Perth is not even unique within Australia, there is a small town in
>>>> Tasmania. But the point about ambiguity remaining even if we restrict it to
>>>> concepts like ‘capital’ is a very good one.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> David (resident of the Western Australian Perth)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 1:18 pm, Liz Williams
>>>> <liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.willia
>>>> ms at auda.org.au<mailto:ms at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.or
>>>> g.au<http://g.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto
>>>> :liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.will
>>>> iams at auda.org.au<mailto:iams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.o
>>>> rg.au<http://rg.au>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mai
>>>> lto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<http://auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hello everyone
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I wanted to start a new thread of conversation about city names ahead of our
>>>> upcoming conference call.   We are being encouraged by our co-chairs to
>>>> think about city names as TLDs. The first point is, perhaps, to recognise
>>>> the “success” of some previous city TLDs including Berlin, Paris, NYC and so
>>>> on.  Those applications went through very specific requirements for
>>>> evaluation and, now, hopefully serve the requirements of local communities.
>>>> We should hope that, in any new round, the experiences of those cities will
>>>> ease the way for future applications because we have learnt something about
>>>> how and why applicants apply for place names (and I use the word place
>>>> deliberately) as top level domain labels.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> For our next round of policy recommendations I wanted to use an example
>>>> which I think highlights the difficulties we face if we are prescriptive and
>>>> limited in our analysis.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Most of us know that Perth is the capital city of Western Australia.  It is
>>>> not the capital city of Australia as Canberra has that honour.  Relying on a
>>>> “is the word a capital city” question is fraught with difficulty.   It is
>>>> difficult because Perth, Scotland, has at a bare minimum had city status
>>>> since the 12th century, far longer than Perth, Australia which also has an
>>>> indigenous place name, its colonial name and a migrant demographic where the
>>>> largest majority of Perth residents come from England.  Things are
>>>> complicated by the existence of Perth in Canada which, in its own right, has
>>>> some features of a capital and, at the very least, some important historic
>>>> linkages.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> And then we turn to the generic words which Jon Nevett highlighted in a
>>>> previous post (Bath, Save, New) which are also place names.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> That leads us to what can we usefully and objectively recommend as treatment
>>>> of other names which are also linked to places and how those could be
>>>> treated as top level domains.  As a starting point, my recommendation would
>>>> be that we don’t have any special treatment for place names as TLDs and that
>>>> applicants for those names would be evaluated against other business and
>>>> technical criteria just like another application.  However, we might want to
>>>> think about better ways of handling an objection.  Those objections, from
>>>> whatever quarter, need to be treated in exactly the same way.  I don’t
>>>> recommend “letters of support or non-objection”.  They are too subjective,
>>>> fraught with movable political nuance and, in some cases, deeply sensitive
>>>> geo-political facts (using Jerusalem as the example).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I look forward to hearing the views of others.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Liz
>>>> 
>>>> ….
>>>> Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs
>>>> .au Domain Administration Ltd
>>>> M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757
>>>> E:
>>>> liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.william
>>>> s at auda.org.au<mailto:s at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org
>>>> .au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:
>>>> liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.willi
>>>> ams at auda.org.au<mailto:ams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.or
>>>> g.au<http://g.au>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mail
>>>> to:liz.williams at auda.org.au<http://auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>>
>>>> www.auda.org.au<http://www.auda.org.au><http://www.auda.org.au><http://www.auda.org.au/><http://www.
>>>> auda.org.au<http://auda.org.au><http://www.auda.org.au/>><http://www.auda.org.au/>
>>>> 
>>>> Important Notice
>>>> This email may contain information which is confidential and/or subject to
>>>> legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee only. If
>>>> you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or copy any
>>>> part of this email. If you have received this email by mistake, please
>>>> notify the sender and delete this message immediately.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gns
>>>> o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gns
>>>> o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>>> 
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gns
>>>> o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gns
>>>> o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:Gn
>>>> so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gns
>>>> o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:G
>>>> nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
> 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5/attachments/20180504/e7e7e2a3/attachment-0001.html>


More information about the Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list