[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] The States are Getting into the Act
Ayden Férdeline
icann at ferdeline.com
Wed Jun 22 16:45:41 UTC 2016
Hi Kiran,
Thanks for your comments. I hope that in this working group we will take care to
ensure all voices are heard. It is possible, as we move forward, that there may
be one or two holdouts who refuse to agree to with the arguments that others
raise. I believe that is how you have sought to characterise me. I would hope
that where our perspectives differ, my views can be seen not seen as a roadblock
but as a form of dissidence which prevents us from falling into the dangerous
trap of collective blindness. Maybe I will be right, maybe I will be wrong. Both
are possible outcomes.
I tend not to be swayed by those who simply say I am wrong, but I do listen to
evidence and if opposing opinions are put forward outlining why I am mistaken, I
absolutely take these comments onboard. So of course we will be able to “have
confidence in the process” that the Leadership team for this working group has
proposed, because consensus is not when everyone in the group is simply in
agreement with something, consensus is when we reach a result that is fed with
inputs from everyone. Like you, I plan on listening to and respecting the inputs
of others, and I remain open-minded to the final outcome. But it wouldn't be
useful for me or for anyone else to simply hide in the corner quietly
disagreeing.
Best wishes,
Ayden
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 5:06 PM, Kiran Malancharuvil Kiran.Malancharuvil at markmonitor.com wrote:
I think these comments which aim to characterize (or mischaracterize) the
potential outcomes of the PDP to be wildly inappropriate at this stage of the
process.
Can someone get us back on track here? Will we be able to have confidence in the
process if we know there are members of the group that aim to deliver on their
staunchly held beliefs without a willingness to compromise?
Kiran Malancharuvil
Policy Counselor
MarkMonitor
415-419-9138 (m)
Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
On Jun 22, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Ayden Férdeline
<icann at ferdeline.com<mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>> wrote:
Very well said, Volker. I support your comments in their entirety.
There are two roads we can take in this working group: one will lead us to an
open, trusted Internet along with all the economic and social benefits that
would bring. The other road takes us to a place where users are fearful of the
Internet and where the benefits for commerce begin to stagnate. I would hope we
all want to contribute to a global digital economy where trust in the Internet
as a safe and secure place to communicate and to do business can thrive. If we
close off these benefits trying to achieve security objectives, it is we - not
the malicious actors - who stand to loose the most.
So to the suggestion that was raised of collecting social security numbers: I do
not support this. Our digital economy grows only because end users and
businesses are confident that the Internet does not hurt their fundamental
rights, including the reasonable expectation to privacy.
And for the record, I think it's a touch unfair to accuse some voices of having
a conflict of interest when their email signature and statement of interest
fairly notes what influences may contribute to the views they have brought to
our multistakeholder dialogue.
Best wishes,
Ayden
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 4:11 PM, Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi,
I am sorry if my previous mail came over a bit harsh.
I appreciate that your background may be different from mine and the situation
in India may be different from the one in Europe. I take issue with your
suggestion that my horizon is limited by my origin though as I have travelled
and lived abroad quite a lot as well. I also take issue with the continuous
attempts to attempt to regulate content and abusive use of the internet through
domain names.
That aside and back to the topic though, I absolutely refuse to compromise on
issues of legal obligations and rights of both service providers and those that
they serve. As ICANN policy may not violate national or international law, the
requirements of the country with the most protective privacy laws must form the
basis for our deliberations. Anything less than that maximum would put service
providers in a position where they may have to violate applicable law. If you in
India feel that German privacy laws go to far, that is just too bad, but that is
what is the law for us and therefore the measure that I will apply to any
suggestion made in this group. If that does not serve your national security
needs, I am sorry but whois policy was never intended to serve national or
regional security needs. Just like the presumption of innocense means that some
criminals will get away with it, the protection of individual privacy rights
will mean certain data will not be accessible, no matter how desperately some
security agencies want it.
If we compare it to another recent issue, I believe Apple was absolutely right
to refuse the demands made by the FBI.
I am confident that we as a working group will be able to achieve a consensus
position, however this will only be possible if this discussion is devoid of
attempts to regulate the internet. Replacing whois with a new system is a
daunting task already, let us not make it impossible. Unlike a democracy, the
majority does not decide the outcome of a PDP, we need consensus. That aside, I
am confident that the majority of the group opposes the suggestions you have
made.
Best regards,
Volker
Am 22.06.2016 um 16:45 schrieb Catalyst-Vaibhav Aggarwal:
Volker,�
No you don�t take these threats seriously, as the tone and manner is appearing
to be callous. Do I need to mention the crisis EU is going through right now ?
I am avoiding writing to you in a particular manner but this is the second mail
you have written in a superior manner and a showing down manner.�
So here is my take � Even if you want to to show that you represent a
particular set of people � No you don�t. Your statement is skewed and can be
shot at, any point in time as you represent Key Systems and there is a Conflict
of interest for you to even be on this group.�
You can definitely give your inputs, but you do not have the right to make
policy. You have business vested Interests. What you are writing in this WG
mailing list, shud it be taken KEY SYSTEM�s Official Stand on the matter �
in the same tone and reference? Please elaborate.�
Re Representations, your response is Patronizing, Aggressive and Harsh when
compared to how I have worded my mail. NOT Discounting that I can pin you down
anytime.�
Please consider I live in a region where I am living amongst 4 Billion People,
not in your region. And I am well travelled globally, to consider the public
policy environment in the west or the east or north or South. If you ever come
to India in the ICANN 57, you will feel the heat yourself. This part of the
world is a bit more complicated than where you are living � especially for
security. So don�t be Patronising.�
BY way of your thoughts, it appears that you don�t get too much vacation. You
have neither travelled to Africa, Nor Asia nor studied those regions. I will be
happy to host you.
Also, let�s be humble when we write in the list. Its been read around the
world, by professionals who don�t have the time to read BS. At least I
don�t.
Back to the Topic, in two lines : Regarding the Point I made earlier, It is
advisable to be Democratic in your approach, I have kept the point for a
discussion, It is a requirement from my side if it get heard great � if not
then this is not the last forum I would like to present this view point to. I
have considerable influence elsewhere too. And I am a Contributor and Member of
the WG as you are. I have the right to be heard, present my view point and Keep
my Voice as you have and As the rest of us have. Who the hell is anyone to
Rubbish what any of us say. Take it easy.�
So Chill and Relax !!
Next time be professional and don�t be patronizing � its democracy not war.
-VA
From: Volker Greimann
<<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 7:31 PM
To: Vaibhav Aggarwal <va at bladebrains.com<mailto:va at bladebrains.com>>,
<gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] The States are Getting into the Act
I take those threats seriously, but I take human rights and personal privacy
rights just as seriously. If we give up our freedoms to stop a few madmen, we
will have paid too high a price. If we go for the lowest common denominator, we
will have paid too high a price.
I also firmly oppose the inclusion of additional data that is not required for
contactability of the domain owner, such as the social security number of the
registrant. This is highly private information and we as service providers have
no business asking for it just because someone wants a domain name. I never had
to provide my SS number to Amazon, to Facebook, to my local phone company or the
post office either and they provide their services to me. Similarly, asking for
additional verification such as cell phone verification or govt issued IDs are
non-starters.
I would also dispute the notion that the registration of a domain name should in
any way be compared to registering a tradmark in the TMCH. The two have nothing
in common.
Frankly, asking for additional privacy-relevant data to be included seems like
an attempt to set this group up for failure since there is no way that it will
gain consensus if that is included in the final recommendations.
If this is your mission, prepared to be disappointed, no matter how many people
you claim to represent.
Best regards,
Volker
Am 22.06.2016 um 15:28 schrieb Catalyst-Vaibhav Aggarwal:
Honestly by way of your reply, You probably don�t take the ISIS threat or the
The treat of Digital Terrorism seriously or relate to it at all. I would like to
request you to take a step back and deliberate on my point not push your view
point on the list.�
I will advocate that the NEXT-GEN requirement should include the process where
in during the completion of the purchase of a Domain Name the Information
related should be absolutely mapped to the Social Security Number of the buyer
� supported by a password authentication on the buyer�s cell phone and
verification of the govt. Issued ID. It should be the Registry-Registrar
relationship responsibility to get this organized and certified by the
respective governments AND the data be made public, in-terms of the validations
made and rejections done. For authentication purpose, the procedure could be the
same as the TMCH undertakes. Validating the respective trademarks. Infact, the
process of buyer validation will be much easier than that of the Trademark as
most countries, either developed or Developing, have the social Security format
is one way or the other, Digitized already and some kind of government
facilitation is available for the API�s to be integrated, if need to do so
arises.�
As a Aware resident of this humble world, I need to be sure that my Digital
World is safe from threats. Rather, if this solution is implemented in part of
in full, Many Registries will save huge costs on Network infrastructure as this
will be able to deal with Internet Spam and Domain-Squatting making it a clean
register for the registries to maintain.�
Customer Privacy is of pivotal Importance, but not more than Digital Terrorism.
In the wake of Free Speech and Privacy, we land up risking the lives of our
loved ones.�
The Data can be made available for the investigating agencies but that is so
many times a long process, so there should be transparency in the system,
creating every view of such information private by way of reader authentication.
So if I want to read your Information or access it, I need to log in, a Text
Authentication, or create an account by uploading my ID etc. etc. Take the
example of Linkedin � the Authentication Algorithm is good but there are so
many cases of wrongful display information in the user accounts there in too.
But on a Dating site like Tinder � It works as the Authentication has checks
built in � yet automated. Lets not make Internet an Uber � where everyone
runs amok.�
And Lastly, My right to Internet is More than yours perhaps as I represent a
MUCH larger set of population that you. So to speak so lets not use the
expression, and you quote - “If we start looking at the countries which do not
care about the privacy of their citizens, then we will get nowhere. Only be
adhering to a maximum standard can we ensure that the result is workable for all
providers and their customers�, in isolation. We have to look at the Global
Picture and It is our endeavor to do �Best Practice Sharing� and make
everyone Grow, together. There is much to learn about the Universe � both On
the Earth and outside the earth.
I look forward to deliberating on this further more.�
Best�
-VA
From:
<gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on
behalf of Volker Greimann
<<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 4:36 PM
To:
<<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] The States are Getting into the Act
Frankly, as a provider that is handing over private details of my customer I do
not care about anything less than the maximum required protection in any
jurisdiction that may be applicable. So what if the states have lower privacy
protection requirements than Europe and India has none? The only acceptable
result in my eyes is an accomodation of the most extensive privacy protection
level that may be required.
If we start looking at the countries which do not care about the privacy of
their citizens, then we will get nowhere. Only be adhering to a maximum standard
can we ensure that the result is workable for all providers and their customers.
Volker
Am 22.06.2016 um 08:59 schrieb Catalyst-Vaibhav Aggarwal:
Since India has no privacy laws, so this WG can perhaps deliberate more to
accommodate and protect such countries where no legislation exists as such. This
will allow the group to offer a wholistic, and long term policy perspective,
justifying NEXT-GEN.�
Regards,
-Vaibhav Aggarwal
New Delhi
TheVaibhav.com<http://thevaibhav.com>
From:
<gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on
behalf of Holly Raiche
<<mailto:h.raiche at internode.on.net>h.raiche at internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche at internode.on.net>>
Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 11:59 AM
To: Carlton Samuels
<carlton.samuels at gmail.com<mailto:carlton.samuels at gmail.com>>
Cc: RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] The States are Getting into the Act
That is scary.
The Australian legislation (Privacy Act 1988) has a much broader definition:
personal information means information or an opinion about an
identified individual, or an individual who is reasonably
identifiable:
(a)�� (a)�whether the information or opinion is true or not; and
(b)�whether the information or opinion is recorded in a material
(a)�� form or not.
�And the Privacy Commissioner�ruled that the definition included meta data
(that decision is being challenged, but then look at the EU as to meta data)
Holly
On 22 Jun 2016, at 4:08 pm, Carlton Samuels
<carlton.samuels at gmail.com<mailto:carlton.samuels at gmail.com>> wrote:
The Illinois Personal Information Protection
Act<http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=2702&ChapAct=815%A0ILCS%A0530/&ChapterID=67&ChapterName=BUSINESS%20TRANSACTIONS&ActName=Personal%20Information%20Protection%20Act.>
might be of mild interest, particularly the definitions....and what is excluded:
“
“Personal information” means an individual's first name or first initial and
last name in combination with any one or more of the following data elements,
when either the name or the data elements are not encrypted or redacted:�
��������(1) Social Security number.�
��������(2) Driver's license number or State identification
����
card number.
��������(3) Account number or credit or debit card number, or
����
an account number or credit card number in combination with any required
security code, access code, or password that would permit access to an
individual's financial account.
“Personal information” does not include publicly available information that is
lawfully made available to the general public from federal, State, or local
government records.�
(Source: P.A. 97-483, eff. 1-1-12.)
-Carlton
==============================
Carlton A Samuels
Mobile: 876-818-1799
Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround
=============================
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