[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
Michele Neylon - Blacknight
michele at blacknight.com
Wed May 31 15:53:30 UTC 2017
Chuck
I think we’re talking at cross-purposes ☺
I don’t think there’s any PII in thin data.
Regards
Michele
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From: Chuck Gomes <cgomes at verisign.com>
Date: Wednesday 31 May 2017 at 15:40
To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>, "jcb at bambenekconsulting.com" <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>, Paul Keating <paul at law.es>
Cc: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: RE: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
Michele,
Couldn’t cases like you cite be handled on an exceptional basis by the owner of the PII rather than complicating access to thin data? How do you handle it?
Chuck
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Michele Neylon - Blacknight
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:08 AM
To: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>; Paul Keating <paul at law.es>
Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
The PII is when the IP is for an end user eg. my home broadband IP address is PII
A nameserver or web server IP address wouldn’t be PII
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Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
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From: <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on behalf of John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Reply-To: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com<mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
Date: Wednesday 31 May 2017 at 14:40
To: Paul Keating <paul at law.es<mailto:paul at law.es>>
Cc: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
See the link I published earlier. Not IPs generally but IPs in certain circumstances can be, yes.
Sent from my iPhone
On May 31, 2017, at 08:38, Paul Keating <paul at law.es<mailto:paul at law.es>> wrote:
See: recent Europrean court decisions on IP addresses as PII.
Can you please provide the citations? I a-m not aware of any court decision issuingsuch a broad ruling.
Thanks,
Paul
Sent from my iPad
On 31 May 2017, at 12:20, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
In some cases the ability to use data set A in combination with data set B to enable one to identify an individual turns data set A into PII.
See: recent Europrean court decisions on IP addresses as PII.
I am with you in viewing thin data as rather unlikely to be defined as PII, but depending on how this data is used it is not inconceivable that it may be found to contain PII depending on the use. Unlikely, but not impossible.
Volker
Am 30.05.2017 um 23:40 schrieb Paul Keating:
Im sorry but i don't see the logic here (or the legal constraint)
Privacy laws protect personal data of INDIVIDUALS. They do t protect non-personal data or data from non-individuals.
Nothing on the list below is personal data. And no e of the principles given by Natalie apply.
The fact that i could use the data to obtain other data is irrelevant. I can use a car to rob a bank but that itself is not a reason to restrict access to automobiles.
Me thinks you are trying to create a scarcity for some reason.
Sent from my iPad
On 30 May 2017, at 23:22, Chris Pelling <chris at netearth.net<mailto:chris at netearth.net>> wrote:
ok - a thought :
Thin data includes nameservers, being able to mass collect thin data gaining NS information then allows you to do a DIG of a SOA record on the DNS service to gain the email address of the hostmaster :
Some examples (radomly picked from the list) :
gmail.com<http://gmail.com> :
SOA ns1.google.com<http://ns1.google.com>. dns-admin.google.com<http://dns-admin.google.com>. 157458041 900 900 1800 60
netearthone.com<http://netearthone.com>
SOA ns1.netearth.net<http://ns1.netearth.net>. root.netearthone.com<http://root.netearthone.com>. 2016090201 14400 3600 1209600 86400
law.es<http://law.es>
SOA ns1.eurodns.com<http://ns1.eurodns.com>. hostmaster.eurodns.com<http://hostmaster.eurodns.com>. 2016061402 43200 7200 1209600 86400
riskiq.net<http://riskiq.net>
SOA ns-1754.awsdns-27.co.uk<http://ns-1754.awsdns-27.co.uk>. awsdns-hostmaster.amazon.com<http://awsdns-hostmaster.amazon.com>. 1 7200 900 1209600 86400
Now as you can see - those above examples allow you to get (or build) an email list. Most will normally point to the providers service, but, some that are DIY'ing their hosting, it might not be.
Kind regards,
Chris
________________________________
From: "allison nixon" <elsakoo at gmail.com<mailto:elsakoo at gmail.com>>
To: "nathalie coupet" <nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com<mailto:nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com>>
Cc: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 May, 2017 21:52:32
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
so can you name one specific example of how someone could abuse thin data?
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 4:50 PM, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>> wrote:
Abuse is the improper usage or treatment of an entity<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity>, often to unfairly<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributive_justice> or improperly gain benefit. In our context, abuse is the improper usage of WHOIS/RDS to unfairly or improperly gain access to information or to game the system.
Here are some of the overarching principles which should guide us when building RDS:
DATA LIFECYCLE PRIVACY PRINCIPLE PROTECTION MEASURE
Collection Proportionality and purpose specification Data minimisation, Data quality
Storage Accountability, Security measures, Sensitive data Confidentiality, Encryption, Pseudonomisation
Sharing and processing Lawfulness and fairness, Consent, Right of access Data access control, Data leakage prevention
Deletion Openness, Right to erasure Retention, Archival, Erasure
If such principles are not respected, ICANN will be liable. Consumers don't need to have all the thin data when making a query. This could protect them and enable them to have access to the RDS without raising much opposition.
Now, we could discuss the possibility for broader query types. These principles would still apply, but would be contextualized in order to take into account new sets of parameters for each broader query. By increasing granularity as much as possible, while applying these aformentioned principles, we just might find a way to accomodate everyone.
Nathalie
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 4:00 PM, John Horton <john.horton at legitscript.com<mailto:john.horton at legitscript.com>> wrote:
I was going to reply to Natalie's email as well, but Paul's comments capture my thoughts, so: +1.
John Horton
President and CEO, LegitScript
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Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com> | Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript> | Twitter<https://twitter.com/legitscript> | Blog<http://blog.legitscript.com/> | Google+<https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts>
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On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Paul Keating <paul at law.es<mailto:paul at law.es>> wrote:
Natalie,
Thank you for the email. Im copying the list because i see others have replied to your comment.
I strenuously object to the concept. We are discussing THIN DATA ONLY HERE. Unless someone can explain to me why any of this data set has privacy concerns this is a non-issue. I would certainly appreciate someone explaining what, if any, privacy issues are perceived to be at issue here.
Moreover, while you suggest that the idea escapes the need to declare a purpose, it does nothing but reinforce a subjective criteria based system in which the declared purpose is used to somehow limit the data being retrieved.
If i am missing something please let me know.
Paul
Sent from my iPad
On 30 May 2017, at 21:08, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>> wrote:
Hi Paul,
In the context of thin data, in view of the opposition of some to allow unauthenticated access to all the thin data, the principle of proportionality serves as an over-arching principle at this particular phase in our work in order to protect data from abuse while not restricting access.
Thin data must be proportionate to the query, be useful for that particular query. All and any other thin data foreign to this query should not be shared. This principle potentially avoids having to resort to 'legitimate purposes' which cannot be verified for unauthenticated access.
Nathalie
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 2:44 PM, "Gomes, Chuck via gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>> wrote:
Because Nathalie was the originator and was unable to speak on the call, I encourage her to describe the nature of the issue on this thread.
Chuck
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann. org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg- bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of Paul Keating
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 2:17 PM
To: Lisa Phifer <lisa at corecom.com<mailto:lisa at corecom.com>>; RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
Im sorry to have missed the call but had a client engagement.
Can someone briefly describe the nature of the issue?
Thanks
Paul
From: <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@ icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on behalf of Lisa Phifer <lisa at corecom.com<mailto:lisa at corecom.com>>
Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 7:52 PM
To: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
All, per today's call action item:
Action Item: Nathalie Coupet and any other WG members who wish to do so to propose to the WG list a new principle on proportionality for "thin data." All WG members to comment on that proposed principle in advance of next call.
we are starting a new thread here which anyone may reply to if they wish to propose (or respond to) a new principle on proportionality for "thin data" access.
Best, Lisa
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