[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
Gomes, Chuck
cgomes at verisign.com
Wed May 31 18:04:07 UTC 2017
It probably is not significant to the ongoing discussion, but ARIN did not exist 30 years ago. The functions ARIN now performs were done in the early to mid-90’s by Network Solutions as part of its cooperative agreement with the National Science Foundation. ARIN was formed by Network Solutions in cooperation with NSF and the community in the 90’s.
Chuck
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of allison nixon
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 11:44 AM
To: Chris Pelling <chris at netearth.net>
Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
>>Similar someone (I think you Paul) said there is no correlation between IP address and getting personal data (something along that line) - thats wrong too, as the RIR's hold records, LIRs populate that date held by RIRs and depending on how and when this was updated, could provide personal information (more likely company / corporate info) because in the old days (talking 20 years ago now) records and even 30 years ago for ARIN personal information could have been used.
I am glad you brought up IP whois records, because an interesting situation is happening with them right now. Now that ipv4 space is extremely valuable and many ranges are neglected, groups have taken to hijacking neglected space and sell them for tens of thousands of dollars. IP whois is one of the very few audit trails available to people who don't want to buy stolen goods.
Domains are generally not as valuable, but there is another debate here- it is not purely an issue of privacy vs security. It is an issue of privacy vs the concept of property ownership. If your identity is not associated with your domain in any verifiable way, do you have a valid claim to the property? If it is all up to the registrar saying "trust me", what assurances exist against a hack, hijack, ownership dispute, or malicious registrar?
Broader issues exist than only privacy. The overemphasis on privacy by this group is beyond absurd
On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Chris Pelling <chris at netearth.net<mailto:chris at netearth.net>> wrote:
John,
I refer you to my original email, the question was how could it be abused, I gave an answer, I did not expect hours or reading on that answer - but it was a fair answer, maybe an edge case, but still a correct answer.
I have not said anything about privacy, all I said was this can gain you an email address by working the system.
Similar someone (I think you Paul) said there is no correlation between IP address and getting personal data (something along that line) - thats wrong too, as the RIR's hold records, LIRs populate that date held by RIRs and depending on how and when this was updated, could provide personal information (more likely company / corporate info) because in the old days (talking 20 years ago now) records and even 30 years ago for ARIN personal information could have been used.
For those who do not know how to lookup an IP: whois <ip> ie. jwhois 80.251.17.0
For those who do not know the accronyms :
RIR:
Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) are nonprofit corporations that administer and register Internet Protocol (IP) address space and Autonomous System (AS) numbers within a defined region. RIRs also work together on joint projects.
LIR:
A local Internet registry (LIR) is an organization that has been allocated a block of IP addresses by a regional Internet registry (RIR), and that assigns most parts of this block to its own customers.
ARIN:
The American Registry for Internet Numbers is the Regional Internet Registry for Canada, the United States, and many Caribbean and North Atlantic islands. (first RIR if memory serves)
Kind regards,
Chris
_____
From: "John Bambenek" <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com<mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>>
To: "Chris Pelling" <chris at netearth.net<mailto:chris at netearth.net>>
Cc: "Paul Keating" <paul at law.es<mailto:paul at law.es>>, "gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, 31 May, 2017 15:50:25
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
It is still stored by the provider in a service operated by the provider and edited with an interface created by the provider using whatever business logic or validation that is written by the provider. Fine, control is not the precise word.
All that being said, if SOA is ok even when editable only by an interface by the provider then so is all WHOIS data which is entered by the consumer. It really is either/or here. You can't on one hand say there are no privacy implications of SOA and then turn around when you have an almost identical set of facts and cry privacy foul over whois.
j
On 5/31/2017 9:46 AM, Chris Pelling wrote:
John,
You are entirely wrong in your statement : Point in fact, for consumers, SOA is NOT under control of the consumer.
Yet many of the largest and paid service allow you to edit just that record as the consumer.
Kind regards,
Chris
_____
From: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org><mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
To: "Paul Keating" <paul at law.es><mailto:paul at law.es>
Cc: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org><mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 31 May, 2017 15:14:53
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
Point in fact, for consumers, SOA is NOT under control of the consumer. I would bet a very rare set of consumers who own domains actually run their own DNS servers. They are either using the registrar or their hosting provider.
Sure they put in the data. But that is also true of whois/rds. No one does this for the consumer. They put in all their own data. Considering the number of domains under the control of various registrars that still accept all 0s for phone number, no one verifies that data either.
This does, however, reinforce that making whois for free solves almost all of this issue. If consumers have a true choice that's free and the choices are explained, all of these privacy issues almost completely are resolved.
J
Sent from my iPhone
On May 31, 2017, at 08:38, Paul Keating <paul at law.es<mailto:paul at law.es>> wrote:
+1!
Sent from my iPad
On 31 May 2017, at 11:38, Victoria Sheckler <vsheckler at riaa.com<mailto:vsheckler at riaa.com>> wrote:
+1
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 10:36 PM
To: Chris Pelling <chris at netearth.net<mailto:chris at netearth.net>>
Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
Hi,
This is a pretty strained example, since the RDS is irrelevant here. You can get the SOAs in the examples as soon as you know the domain name. You have no need to consult RDS at all. And the SOA is completely under the control of the DNS operator, and in the absence of Internet Protocol Police you can put whatever you want in there for your own zones. No real dns admin has trusted that field for years.
This repetitious and always fruitless discussion of whether anyone can get any data to "abuse" out of the thin data seems to miss the point of why we started with thin data: it was supposed to be easy. I've yet to hear even one remotely plausible issue with respect to any of this data, because it's all needed by virtue of creating a name space on the Internet. That's what domain name registrations do, so if you don't want to expose this much data you shouldn't register domain names. Unless someone can come up with a single concrete example of something problematic, I'd like us to move on to a topic where there's some substance to discuss.
Best regards,
A
--
Andrew Sullivan
Please excuse my clumbsy thums.
On May 30, 2017, at 17:22, Chris Pelling <chris at netearth.net<mailto:chris at netearth.net>> wrote:
ok - a thought :
Thin data includes nameservers, being able to mass collect thin data gaining NS information then allows you to do a DIG of a SOA record on the DNS service to gain the email address of the hostmaster :
Some examples (radomly picked from the list) :
gmail.com<http://gmail.com> :
SOA ns1.google.com<http://ns1.google.com>. dns-admin.google.com<http://dns-admin.google.com>. 157458041 900 900 1800 60
netearthone.com<http://netearthone.com>
SOA ns1.netearth.net<http://ns1.netearth.net>. root.netearthone.com<http://root.netearthone.com>. 2016090201<tel:(201)%20609-0201> 14400 3600 1209600 86400
law.es<http://law.es>
SOA ns1.eurodns.com<http://ns1.eurodns.com>. hostmaster.eurodns.com<http://hostmaster.eurodns.com>. 2016061402<tel:(201)%20606-1402> 43200 7200 1209600 86400
riskiq.net<http://riskiq.net>
SOA ns-1754.awsdns-27.co.uk<http://ns-1754.awsdns-27.co.uk>. awsdns-hostmaster.amazon.com<http://awsdns-hostmaster.amazon.com>. 1 7200 900 1209600 86400
Now as you can see - those above examples allow you to get (or build) an email list. Most will normally point to the providers service, but, some that are DIY'ing their hosting, it might not be.
Kind regards,
Chris
_____
From: "allison nixon" <elsakoo at gmail.com<mailto:elsakoo at gmail.com>>
To: "nathalie coupet" <nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com<mailto:nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com>>
Cc: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 May, 2017 21:52:32
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
so can you name one specific example of how someone could abuse thin data?
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 4:50 PM, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>> wrote:
Abuse is the improper usage or treatment of an entity<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity>, often to unfairly<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributive_justice> or improperly gain benefit. In our context, abuse is the improper usage of WHOIS/RDS to unfairly or improperly gain access to information or to game the system.
Here are some of the overarching principles which should guide us when building RDS:
DATA LIFECYCLE PRIVACY PRINCIPLE PROTECTION MEASURE
Collection Proportionality and purpose specification Data minimisation, Data quality
Storage Accountability, Security measures, Sensitive data Confidentiality, Encryption, Pseudonomisation
Sharing and processing Lawfulness and fairness, Consent, Right of access Data access control, Data leakage prevention
Deletion Openness, Right to erasure Retention, Archival, Erasure
If such principles are not respected, ICANN will be liable. Consumers don't need to have all the thin data when making a query. This could protect them and enable them to have access to the RDS without raising much opposition.
Now, we could discuss the possibility for broader query types. These principles would still apply, but would be contextualized in order to take into account new sets of parameters for each broader query. By increasing granularity as much as possible, while applying these aformentioned principles, we just might find a way to accomodate everyone.
Nathalie
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 4:00 PM, John Horton <john.horton at legitscript.com<mailto:john.horton at legitscript.com>> wrote:
I was going to reply to Natalie's email as well, but Paul's comments capture my thoughts, so: +1.
John Horton
President and CEO, LegitScript
Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com> | Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript> | Twitter<https://twitter.com/legitscript> | Blog<http://blog.legitscript.com/> | Google+<https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts>
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Paul Keating <paul at law.es<mailto:paul at law.es>> wrote:
Natalie,
Thank you for the email. Im copying the list because i see others have replied to your comment.
I strenuously object to the concept. We are discussing THIN DATA ONLY HERE. Unless someone can explain to me why any of this data set has privacy concerns this is a non-issue. I would certainly appreciate someone explaining what, if any, privacy issues are perceived to be at issue here.
Moreover, while you suggest that the idea escapes the need to declare a purpose, it does nothing but reinforce a subjective criteria based system in which the declared purpose is used to somehow limit the data being retrieved.
If i am missing something please let me know.
Paul
Sent from my iPad
On 30 May 2017, at 21:08, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>> wrote:
Hi Paul,
In the context of thin data, in view of the opposition of some to allow unauthenticated access to all the thin data, the principle of proportionality serves as an over-arching principle at this particular phase in our work in order to protect data from abuse while not restricting access.
Thin data must be proportionate to the query, be useful for that particular query. All and any other thin data foreign to this query should not be shared. This principle potentially avoids having to resort to 'legitimate purposes' which cannot be verified for unauthenticated access.
Nathalie
On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 2:44 PM, "Gomes, Chuck via gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>> wrote:
Because Nathalie was the originator and was unable to speak on the call, I encourage her to describe the nature of the issue on this thread.
Chuck
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann. org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg- bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of Paul Keating
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 2:17 PM
To: Lisa Phifer <lisa at corecom.com<mailto:lisa at corecom.com>>; RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
Im sorry to have missed the call but had a client engagement.
Can someone briefly describe the nature of the issue?
Thanks
Paul
From: <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@ icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on behalf of Lisa Phifer <lisa at corecom.com<mailto:lisa at corecom.com>>
Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 7:52 PM
To: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access
All, per today's call action item:
Action Item: Nathalie Coupet and any other WG members who wish to do so to propose to the WG list a new principle on proportionality for "thin data." All WG members to comment on that proposed principle in advance of next call.
we are starting a new thread here which anyone may reply to if they wish to propose (or respond to) a new principle on proportionality for "thin data" access.
Best, Lisa
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