[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Meetings/Conversations with Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Wed Sep 27 14:52:10 UTC 2017
Hi Greg,
I think we need to dig down even deeper initially. Instead of RDS, the
core of the matter is the need for the data when defining the purpose
for collection.
This is very easy to answer for registrars: "We need (certain elements
of) the data to be able to properly provide the business, invoice the
customer, collect his payments, send reminders and notices, protect the
rights of the customers in case of business failure, comply with legal
requirements like record-keeping, etc.". I am leaving out any
contractual requirements, as they do not matter for the registrars' own
purpose. These are external purposes that the registrar would have to
execute without having an own, direct need for.
For registries, it gets fuzzier as they do not have a direct connection
to the registrants. From a service provision perspective, registries
have no need for the data, and no right to it, except maybe for purposes
of eligibility verification.
When going beyond registries to the general public, there is no purpose
that connects to the provision of the service to the registrant
directly. There also (in most countries) is no legal requirement to
collect and publish this data. Yet there is still a need for the data,
as we have discussed in great detail.
So our first question always must be the following:
"How do we serve the needs of the general public that has an interest in
the ability of obtaining such data without violating any applicable laws
or the rights of the registrant to the privacy of his data?"
This has to be the basis of any design decision and any argument made in
this group.
Arguing that certain laws are unreasonable or unworkable is a dangerous
question as it effectively proposes to ignore laws that we as a
community do not like, at the risk of contracted parties and to the
detriment of the beneficiaries of such laws. just because there has not
been any enforcement action in the past does not mean we can ignore the
law applicable to the individual contracted parties. And we are not
talking about jaywalking here, some of these laws have significant
penalties attached to them, as we have also discussed before.
I agree with Greg that the ability of contracted parties to be free to
make business decisions cannot be absolute. It has to be bound on the
one side by ICANN policies and the other side by applicable law. And
these two external pressures should not be in conflict with each other.
If we can achieve that while answering the basic question above, our
work is done. At least for the time being, as laws may obviously change,
but that can be taken into account as well. Any discussion that seeks to
circumvent this basic question will ultimately lead to the failure of
our work and by extention to the end of whois. The latter due to the
incompatibility of current whois with applicable law.
I think with our initial "purpose definition" exercise, we already went
a great way in determining what those needs are and our current work to
discuss data points goes into that question as well, even though
personally I feel that by defining data points at this point and going
into the sticks in some of the discussions we are wasting time. The
question should never be "Do we need a Facebook contact in the RDS?" and
always be "What contacts are needed as bare minimum to achieve needs X,
Y, Z, ...".
Best,
Volker
Am 27.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Greg Shatan:
> The "data controllers" here do not exist in a vacuum. While
> registrars and registries need to be free to make many types of
> decisions in their own business judgment, that cannot be an absolute
> rule. This is at odds with the ICANN model, consensus policy, etc. In
> this case, the data controllers are part of a larger ecosystem, and
> the "needs" go beyond the individual business needs of each data
> controller. (Indeed, the individual data controller has its own
> database of information for its business needs.)
>
> As I previously noted, we are going back to first principles -- which
> is not necessarily a bad thing. Why does ICANN (and by extension, the
> Internet) need WHOIS/RDS? That is the question. Not "why does a
> particular [registrar/registry] need WHOIS/RDS?"
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 5:12 AM, Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>
> So when will you start advocating the collection and publication
> of WHOIS for internet users? Because they would be connecting to
> your network all the time...
>
> Volker
>
>
> Am 26.09.2017 um 20:48 schrieb John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>>
>> "As for privacy proxy solving the problem, it does not. Over
>> collection is not solved by providing a proxy in the third party
>> disclosure mechanism. It is still over-collection,
>> disproportionate to needs."
>>
>> I fundamentally disagree because the purpose of ICANN is not the
>> mere facilitation of domain from registry to registrant. The
>> purpose is the security and stability of the internet and that
>> means I have a need to verify who is connecting to my network and
>> have a means of contacting them. That point has never been made,
>> to my knowledge, to them.
>>
>> The point that removing that ability of me being able to contact
>> domain owners does far MORE to REDUCE the privacy of the
>> registrants than does publishing said information. We talk often
>> about verification out-of-band for sensitive communications. How
>> can I do that without a phone number?
>>
>> I will loudly and vigorously argue that the path advocated will
>> make the problem FAR worse and not better. Hopefully we don't get
>> to the point where I have actual data to prove that.
>>
>>
>> On 9/26/2017 1:34 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>>> As for privacy proxy solving the problem, it does not. Over
>>> collection is not solved by providing a proxy in the third party
>>> disclosure mechanism. It is still over-collection,
>>> disproportionate to needs.
>>
>> --
>> --
>>
>> John Bambenek
>>
>>
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> --
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>
> Volker A. Greimann
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>
> Key-Systems GmbH
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> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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