[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

Mon Mar 12 02:23:13 UTC 2018

Not responding to Sivasubramanian M in particular but rather the whole
thread.

The distinction between commercial activity and non-commercial activity is
irrelevant to the issue of crime and abuse. The distinction between legal
and natural persons is almost as irrelevant. Whatever openings are given to
criminals and abusers they will take advantage of and leverage. This whole
approach sets the stage for severely suboptimal outcomes.I am really
starting to believe that participating in this group is a waste of time.

To the extent that registries and registrars are not required to do
anything in addressing the criminal and abuse issues, there will be those
that choose to make the business decision not to put resources or at most
minimal resources against those issues.

To the extent that ICANN and this working group (among others) choose not
to address the above, the organization and the participants are complicit
in enabling internet scale abuse and crime. If you think that law
enforcement alone is in a position to address crime and abuse in a
meaningful manner and scale, think again. Governments will need to open
their checkbooks much wider than they have been.

There is a simple solution. Just as in the financial world there is a "know
your customer" requirement, Registrars should be required to meet similar
standards and officers and management of Registrars should be held
personally and strictly liable for failure to do so. One would expect a
higher level of effort under such circumstances.

Some might argue that this disrupts the business model(s) of various
Registrars. Too bad. If a business model externalizes the costs of failure
to address criminal abuse of domain registrations then it probably isn't a
business model that is good for any society.

Michael Hammer

On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 9:10 PM, Sivasubramanian M <6.Internet at gmail.com>
wrote:

> DNS is global. We respect national laws but as in trade marks, we could
> follow a common minimum set of parameters on what constitutes commercial
> activity for DNS. For example, (this also answers one part of Steve
> Crocker's question somewhat), without going into content, it is perfectly
> alright for a Registry (through it's Registrars and Resellers) to ask a
> prospective Registrant to ask if the domain name is intended for personal
> use or for commercial purposes. If for commercial purposes, the form
> proceeds to ask for tax registration numbers (or merely ask if the
> prospective Registrant complies with commercial tax regulations) and asks
> if the business would use a payment gateway or would carry out monetary
> transactions in any form. These questions about tax registrations / payment
> gateways could be asked either before the prospective Registrant classifies
> himself or after. Either way we don't go into content at this stage. Also,
> by this method, if as per global DNS policy, a Mr.Joseph from Germany
> registers a personal domain, sets up a WordPress blog and earns a small sum
> by AdWords, DNS compliance wouldn't bother him, and the answer from ICANN
> to Germany would be that as per the common minimum set of global DNS
> parameters, as far as ICANN is concerned, Mr.Joseph's domain name is
> personal.
>
> Sivasubramanian M
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2018, 5:47 PM Volker Greimann - Key-Systems GmbHz <
> vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>
>> Very true. German courts have held otherwise private websites using
>> Adsense advertizing as being  commercially used.
>>
>> So there would be large differences.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 11. Mar 2018, at 17:39, David Cake <dave at davecake.net> wrote:
>>
>> Yes. What counts as commercial use varies by jurisdiction. It we try to
>> force groups into a commercial category based on some single metric (such
>> as “accepts payments” ), then many will be miscategorised.
>>
>> I agree very much with Greg that this is a yawning rabbit hole of dubious
>> value. It has yet to be demonstrated that it has any relevance to our
>> discussions.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On 12 Mar 2018, at 4:00 am, theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks John,
>>
>> I would turn that around, If regional or national laws already fix those
>> issues, then we should not come up with a solution that will never work one
>> a global level, we have a very limited remit here.
>>
>> Theo
>>
>> On 11-3-2018 20:52, John Bambenek wrote:
>>
>> We are trying to develop a globally sounds solution to RDS that fits the
>> needs of all stakeholders instead of using a tailored and specific law and
>> applying that far beyond what it is intended to do.
>>
>> --
>> John Bambenek
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:49, theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>
>> What are we trying to solve here? And is that up to this WG?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Theo
>>
>> On 11-3-2018 20:44, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
>>
>> It is simple. Every county in the world has a process for creating a
>> legal person. That process is very different from acknowledging the
>> creation of a natural person.
>>
>> In an overwhelming majority if cases neither natural or legal persons
>> will attempt to deceive you as to which they are. Microsoft isn’t going to
>> say their domain is personal. People aren’t going to tell you they are
>> really corporations.
>>
>> In those rare cases of deception, every country on earth has a legal
>> definition and surely a process of determining which is which.
>>
>> --
>> John Bambenek
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
>> michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>>
>> John
>>
>> If it was simple we wouldn’t have spent as long as we did in the PPSAI
>> PDP discussing and debating it.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Michele
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>> Blacknight Solutions
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>> https://blacknight.blog/
>> https://ceo.hosting/
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072 <+353%2059%20918%203072>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 <+353%2059%20918%203090>
>> -------------------------------
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>> Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:38
>> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
>> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian
>> muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy
>> Standards
>>
>> The legal vs natural person debate is simple. Surely we can agree on
>> that.
>>
>>
>> I think there is a great deal of overcomplicating commercial purpose just
>> in my quick review. We need not let the exceptions drive the rule. One
>> quick indicator is “accepts payments”. I bet we could all come up with a
>> dozen are so unambiguous indicators quickly. Let the edge cases be
>> adjudicated.
>> --
>> John Bambenek
>>
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:28, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
>> michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>>
>> John
>>
>> While the final report I pointed you to contains the conclusions I’d
>> recommend you take the time to have a look over the PPSAI deliberations on
>> this matter.
>>
>> You talked about “commercial use”, which is understandable, however, as
>> the discussions show it is not as simple as a difference between legal
>> person and natural person.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Michele
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>> Blacknight Solutions
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>> https://blacknight.blog/
>> https://ceo.hosting/
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072 <+353%2059%20918%203072>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 <+353%2059%20918%203090>
>> -------------------------------
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>> Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:06
>> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
>> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian
>> muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy
>> Standards
>>
>> Ok, well having read that I believe my answer is still a valid response
>> to Volker. You ask during registration, make it mandatory to answer one way
>> or the other, and in complaints simple use the definitions in use in the
>> jurisdiction involved. Surely every country on earth knows the difference
>> between legal and natural persons, and I think tax law is an easy barometer
>> for determining commercial activity. Yes, it puts some effort on providers
>> who want to avoid “content” but I reiterate the point of contention here:
>>
>>
>>
>> That those who actually work in security and those who actually work in
>> protecting privacy (with lone exceptions of DPAs) are of the loud, firm,
>> and unanimous contention that not having access to this information in a
>> free, easy, and programmatic way while lead to a dramatic and clear lose of
>> privacy far beyond the presence of emails in whois/rds. The policy position
>> that we must extend full privacy to everyone (despite a mandate to extend
>> that far) is fundamentally unnecessary and that the security and stability
>> of the internet which is actually in ICANNs mission is more important than
>> convenience of registries/registrars in dealing with how to define
>> commercial which is NOT in ICANNs mission.
>> --
>> John Bambenek
>>
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
>> michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>>
>> Here’s the final report:
>>
>> https://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/raa/ppsai-final-07dec15-en.pdf
>>
>> The relevant section is from page 39 onwards and again from page 55
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Michele
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>> Blacknight Solutions
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>> https://blacknight.blog/
>> https://ceo.hosting/
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072 <+353%2059%20918%203072>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 <+353%2059%20918%203090>
>> -------------------------------
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>> Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 14:31
>> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
>> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian
>> muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy
>> Standards
>>
>> For those not present, can you summarize or at least point to a document
>> we can read? Stating that something was discussed somewhere gives me little
>> to go on as to what information you’d like me to know.
>>
>> --
>> John Bambenek
>>
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:14, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
>> michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>>
>> This issue was discussed in depth during the PPSAI (proxy privacy) PDP.
>>
>> --
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>> Blacknight Solutions
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>> https://blacknight.blog/
>> https://ceo.hosting/
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072 <+353%2059%20918%203072>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 <+353%2059%20918%203090>
>> -------------------------------
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>> Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>> *From: *gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of
>> Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 11:24
>> *To: *sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy
>> Standards
>>
>> Please provide a workable, reasonable method of identifying the domain
>> names used in commercial manner amongst the existing hundreds of million
>> registered domains. Please also identify how this determination can be
>> updated automatically once the use of a domain name changes.
>>
>> The fact is that commercial use is content. ICANN does not deal with
>> content except for very small and specific areas. ICANN and registrars have
>> no relationship with the content that is published under a domain name. We
>> certainly have no control over specific uses.
>>
>> These details belong on the websites, as is provided in the laws in
>> Europe and other jurisdictions. There is no need to duplicate this in whois.
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9. Mar 2018, at 07:49, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Private persons (including private persons in a public career or a career
>> of public exposure) need privacy. Why is this notion extended to protect
>> online commercial entities of varying ethical standards? Does
>> Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce have a right to privacy of its
>> Registrant data?
>>
>> Their customers don't look for contact information from RDS, but in the
>> entity's commercial web site, but the information is not there. Many online
>> entities operate from behind layers of veil that separate them from
>> customers and enable them to carry on their commercial activity with
>> minimal or non-existent accountability.
>>
>> Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce sells millions of air tickets but
>> does not seem to have a building somewhere, and/or does not have an
>> employee with a name. Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce takes your
>> money, takes your information without disclosing any of its own, and does
>> not have a phone number or answer email messages (operates through call
>> centers, answers email messages by templates) when you are stranded
>> Midway with a ticket that doesn't work. Yourcasino takes your credit card
>> number, yourpharmacy takes your money and medical data, yourholiday owns
>> your passport, and all these entities don't have an email address, phone
>> number or a building with a person.
>>
>> Could we do away with this notion of (Registrant)data privacy where it
>> concerns an online entity that carries out commercial monetary transactions
>> online? That would require us to discriminate between private persons and
>> e-commerce entities, which would be a complex process - agreed.
>> Nevertheless, could we think about this?
>>
>> Sivasubramanian M
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
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