[tz] Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world

Tobias Conradi tobias.conradi at gmail.com
Tue May 8 17:28:08 UTC 2012

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Wallace, Malcolm <Malcolm.Wallace at sc.com> wrote:
>> Who is we?
>> This does not apply to what the IANA hosted tzdb project does. Do you
>> have a mailing list for your tzdb project?
>> Also it seems the Elz tzdb is much less known than the IANA / Olson
>> tzdb.
> I believe, when Robert says "we",
Believe doesn't help.

>he probably means himself, Arthur
> Olson, and Paul Eggert, who together have recently been the official
> maintainers of the IANA/Olson tzdb.
I see no indication on the mailing list that Robert Elz is the
spokesperson for Arthur David Olson.

>His "we" may even include some
> other people on this mailing list, who also understand the tzdb project
> well.
Or not. It may also include people that don't understand it.

> It is clear that you do not understand this project as well as
> they do
Can you bring evidence for this?

>- otherwise you would not constantly be questioning their
> judgement,
That is a false claim by you. Questioning the judgement of any group
of people doesn't mean the one who is questioning doesn't understand
the topic.

>in a manner that often comes across as rude and offensive.
That is your interpretation.

> Whilst you seem to think that the "Theory" file is the ultimate arbiter
> of the scope of the project, you are wrong.
If I seem to do something then I am wrong? Wouldn't it be that I
/seem/ to be wrong?

>  It is the human beings
> named as maintainers who take the ultimate decisions on whether any
> particular proposed change is in or out of scope for the tzdb project.
And in /taking/ decisions they can introduce bugs. Or staying away
from fixing as in

a) Paul Eggert
::Hong Kong ... is a country

b) Theory file:
::when countries change their name ...
::Hong Kong from UK colony to China

-> The country Hong Kong changed its name from "UK colony" to "China"?

This is not supported by
c) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#HK
::HK	Hong Kong 1974

This issue had been reported at 2011-09-12 by Tobias Conradi

> These human beings, through their long association with the tzdb
> project, are able to understand and interpret nuances,
Nuances of what or where?

> and also to make
> corrections to the text of the Theory file (where the Theory file turns
> out to fail to express the intent of the maintainers adequately).
Corrections can also be made with and without long association. What
is needed is understanding the text. But I agree that with certain
people it may be difficult to find an agreement on the correct answer

-> The country Hong Kong changed its name from "UK colony" to "China"?

> If you can manage both to be more polite whilst asking questions,
Be polite whilst asking a question? You mean I should smile in front
of my computer screen?

> and
> clearer about the changes you propose,
I think I was clear enough, and people can ask for clarification.

> you will probably find you will
> achieve a more rapid and willing response.
I am very content with the rapidness of the responses to the zones I
proposed to be created. If you and Robert Elz didn't respond this
doesn't matter. First of all I care about the tzdb. And if you and
Robert Elz don't understand something, you are free to ask for
clarification. But I have not seen any such request between September
2011 and March 2012.

>  But if you persist with your
> current abrasive approach,
What do you think is my "current abrasive approach"? Can you show to
the list members some examples?

> I think the maintainers may eventually get
> tired of your style and cease to respond at all.
I care about correctness in the tzdb. I hope maintainers are happy to
receive bug reports as they help to improve the tzdb.

>> Maybe this time you look into the
>> Theory file and read what the scope of the tzdb is.
>    "The time zone rule file naming conventions attempt to strike a
> balance
>    among the following goals:
>     * Uniquely identify every national region where clocks have all
>       agreed since 1970.  [...]
>     * Indicate to humans as to where that region is.
>     * [...] "
> I presume you mean to invoke the second bullet point here.
A presumption about a thing is not the thing itself.

Tobias Conradi
Rheinsberger Str. 18
10115 Berlin


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