[CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC
Alan Greenberg
alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca
Fri Jul 15 20:18:55 UTC 2016
I presume that the inten of having a "default"
was that it was what we should use if there were not need for external counsel.
I am tired of endless discussions which do not
change anything. Regardless of which is "default"
or exactly what that means, we will have to make a case-by-case choice.
Alan
At 15/07/2016 02:44 PM, Rudolph Daniel wrote:
>There would seem to be an issue with "default"
>is there any substantive difference if we
>consider independent legal council "default"
>with the availability of icann inhouse legal
>services to compliment . That would also suggest the need for fiscal restraint
>rd
>
>
>Rudi Daniel
><http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>danielcharles
>consulting
>
>
>
>On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Seun Ojedeji
><<mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>seun.ojedeji at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello,
>
>By default means always considering use of ICANN
>legal staff first before going independent. I
>don't think this should require a dialout as I
>think we all agree that CCWG should have access
>to independent legal whenever required.
>
>Regards
>Sent from my LG G4
>Kindly excuse brevity and typos
>
>On 15 Jul 2016 19:00, "farzaneh badii"
><<mailto:farzaneh.badii at gmail.com>farzaneh.badii at gmail.com> wrote:
>No. Using the independent legal advisers
>responsibly does not mean that we have to have a default approach.
>
>I wonder what the next steps would be on this
>issue. Perhaps co-chairs can help us on this ?
>Are we going to have a call and discuss this and come up with a solution?
>
>On 15 July 2016 at 19:46, Seun Ojedeji
><<mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>seun.ojedeji at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>+1 on ensuring access to independent legal
>adviser whenever required by CCWG. This would
>imply referring to internal legal(staff) by
>default and then call for independent legal
>advice whenever the group sense there is need
>for clarification (or when the issues at hand is warranted).
>
>Regards
>Sent from my LG G4
>Kindly excuse brevity and typos
>
>On 15 Jul 2016 13:19, "James M. Bladel"
><<mailto:jbladel at godaddy.com>jbladel at godaddy.com> wrote:
>Agree with Keith.
>
>CCWG must preserve the use of independent legal
>advisors, but use this responsibly, and with an
>eye on controlling costs. Ultimately, it is
>gTLD registrants picking up the bill, and we
>need to ensure that this work is mindful of their interests.
>
>Thanks—
>
>J.
>
>From:
><<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>
>on behalf of Keith Drazek <<mailto:kdrazek at verisign.com>kdrazek at verisign.com>
>Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 16:53
>To: Phil Corwin
><<mailto:psc at vlaw-dc.com>psc at vlaw-dc.com>,
>Matthew Shears
><<mailto:mshears at cdt.org>mshears at cdt.org>, Greg
>Shatan
><<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>gregshatanipc at gmail.com>,
>Robin Gross <<mailto:robin at ipjustice.org>robin at ipjustice.org>
>Cc: Accountability Cross Community
><<mailto:accountability-cross-community at icann.org>accountability-cross-community at icann.org>
>Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG
>ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC
>
>Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question.
>
>
>
>That said, in the interest of controlling costs,
>I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s
>internal lawyers on issues that are deemed
>non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist.
>
>
>
>I am obligated to report that the Registries
>Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about
>the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to
>ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future
>spending. I know we’re developing cost-control
>mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG
>accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG.
>
>
>
>Holly’s question and the response about
>budgeting vis-à -vis ICANN’s outside counsel
>was instructive. Any and all outside counsel
>expenses will require certification.
>
>
>
>So, let me reiterate my view
the CCWG must have
>acccess to independent legal advice. We must
>ensure costs are controlled and resources are
>used efficiently. If that means selectively
>turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can
>and do support that, but not at the expense of
>our ability to seek independent advice.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>Keith
>
>
>
>From:
><mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org
>[mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org]
>On Behalf Of Phil Corwin
>Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM
>To: Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross
>Cc: Accountability Cross Community
>Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG
>ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC
>
>
>
>Access to independent legal advice for WS2
>issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable
>
>
>
>Use your power, Empowered Community
>
>
>
>Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal
>Virtualaw LLC
>1155 F Street NW
>Suite 1050
>Washington, DC 20004
><tel:202-559-8597>202-559-8597/Direct
><tel:202-559-8750>202-559-8750/Fax
><tel:202-255-6172>202-255-6172/Cell
>
>Twitter: @VlawDC
>
>"Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey
>
>From:<mailto:mshears at cdt.org>mshears at cdt.org
>
>Sent:July 14, 2016 5:26 PM
>
>To:<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>gregshatanipc at gmail.com;
><mailto:robin at ipjustice.org>robin at ipjustice.org
>
>Cc:<mailto:accountability-cross-community at icann.org>accountability-cross-community at icann.org
>
>Subject:Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG
>ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC
>
>
>
>+ 1 well said Robin.
>
>
>
>On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote:
>
>Robin,
>
>
>
>Agree 100%.
>
>
>
>Greg
>
>On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross
><<mailto:robin at ipjustice.org>robin at ipjustice.org> wrote:
>
>It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG
>would lose its right to independent counsel at
>this stage. I am struggling to understand
>*where* the suggestion to start this debate all
>over again even came from. We have very
>important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2
>that require independence of legal advice:
>transparency of board deliberations, reforming
>the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve
>trying to reform the policies that were created
>by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to
>suggest that we must seek the legal advice from
>those who created the policies we are trying to
>reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals.
>
>Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s
>calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be
>added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG
>will be billed for the in-house efforts to
>resist our reforms (and we won’t be given
>access to the legal advice that we would be
>paying for). I think it is extremely important
>the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We
>need to understand what the separate costs are,
>and we cannot be held responsible for spending
>on Jones Day that is outside of our
>control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes
>must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes
>or the proposed budget process makes absolutely
>no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s
>hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms.
>
>This is an important issue that we cannot roll
>over on, or everything else we try to do from
>here on out will be of questionable value. This
>settled debate should not be re-opened, despite
>the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to
>succeed in over-turning this group’s previous
>decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice.
>
>Thanks,
>Robin
>
>
>
> > On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever
> <<mailto:lists at nielstenoever.net>lists at nielstenoever.net> wrote:
> >
> > Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James
> >
> > On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:
> >> Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.
> >>
> >> CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree
> >> that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.
> >>
> >> + 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Tanya
> >>
> >>
> >> On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:
> >>> Siva,
> >>>
> >>> The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the
> >>> materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire
> >>> independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that,
> >>> please ask them.
> >>>
> >>> I will briefly say the following:
> >>>
> >>> 1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally
> >>> competent and competent in a specific area are two different things.
> >>>
> >>> 2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to
> >>> ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice
> >>> is another thing entirely.
> >>>
> >>> 3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have
> >>> answered your own question.
> >>>
> >>> Greg
> >>>
> >>> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016,
> Sivasubramanian M <<mailto:isolatedn at gmail.com>isolatedn at gmail.com
> >>> <mailto:isolatedn at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Greg,
> >>>
> >>> ​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this
> >>> unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have
> >>> first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal
> >>> nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on
> >>> most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas
> >>> that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan
> >>> <<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>gregshatanipc at gmail.com
> >>>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>gregshatanipc at gmail.com');>>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that
> >>> advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the
> >>> "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for
> >>> good reason
> >>> ​s​
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't
> >>> need to rehash that.
> >>>
> >>> We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to
> >>> CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from
> >>> an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely
> >>> antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its
> >>> independent counsel.
> >>>
> >>> I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo,
> >>> i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the
> >>> ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I
> >>> strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain
> >>> Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a
> >>> tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the
> >>> way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting
> >>> that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside
> >>> the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London,
> >>> Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident
> >>> that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have
> >>> the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working
> >>> methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.
> >>>
> >>> Greg
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel
> >>> <<mailto:rudi.daniel at gmail.com>rudi.daniel at gmail.com
> >>>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<mailto:rudi.daniel at gmail.com>rudi.daniel at gmail.com');>>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of
> >>> knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests
> >>> in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and
> >>> external, from start, We should be much more efficient
> >>> this time around. Each sub however will have their needs
> >>> and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups
> >>> and/or specific to a subgroup.
> >>> So, that suggests close relationship between budget
> >>> control and the former legal request team [reconfigured
> >>> and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests
> >>> across ws2 sub
> >>> groups as i see it.
> >>> What determines the initial choice inhouse/external
> >>> resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be
> >>> prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with
> >>> the flexible and necessary option of external sources by
> >>> consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may
> >>> be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion
> >>> from an external, because there may arise an instance
> >>> where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or
> >>> external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek
> >>> alternative advise elswhere.
> >>> rd
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Rudi Daniel
> >>> /danielcharles consulting
> >>>
> <<http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/
> >>> *
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari
> >>> <<mailto:vinay.kesari at gmail.com>vinay.kesari at gmail.com
> >>>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<mailto:vinay.kesari at gmail.com>vinay.kesari at gmail.com');>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Dear all,
> >>>
> >>> I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was
> >>> on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a
> >>> chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and
> >>> I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability
> >>> to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the
> >>> thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my
> >>> commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to
> >>> working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.
> >>>
> >>> Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal
> >>> requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and
> >>> endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made
> >>> and the specific requirements of the different WS2
> >>> subgroups.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Vinay
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill
> >>> <<mailto:mathieu.weill at afnic.fr>mathieu.weill at afnic.fr
> >>>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<mailto:mathieu.weill at afnic.fr>mathieu.weill at afnic.fr');>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Dear Colleagues,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Attached is a short set of slides to support our
> >>> discussion on agenda item #4
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Talk to you in a few hours
> >>>
> >>> Mathieu
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *De
> :*<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org
> >>>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org');>
> >>>
> [mailto:<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org
> >>>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org');>]
> >>> *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat
> >>> *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46
> >>> *À :* CCWG-Accountability
> >>> *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT
> >>> Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Good day all,
> >>>
> >>> In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability
> >>> WS2 Meeting #2
> >>>
> <<https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>–
> Tuesday,
> >>> 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter
> >>> here
> >>>
> <<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability+Meeting&iso=20160712T20&p1=1440&ah=2>http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability+Meeting&iso=20160712T20&p1=1440&ah=2>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Proposed Agenda:*
> >>>
> >>> 1. Welcome, SOI
> >>>
> >>> 2.
> >>> Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission
> >>>
> >>> 3.
> >>> Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps
> >>>
> >>> 4.
> >>> Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion
> >>>
> >>> 5. AOB
> >>>
> >>> 6. Closing
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Adobe Connect:
> >>>
> *<https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/>https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/
> >>> <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> With kind regards,
> >>>
> >>> Brenda Brewer
> >>>
> >>> MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant
> >>>
> >>> ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names
> >>> and Numbers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Sivasubramanian M
> <<https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy>https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
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> >
> > --
> > Niels ten Oever
> > Head of Digital
> >
> > Article 19
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>--
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>
>
>--------------
>
>Matthew Shears
>
>Global Internet Policy and Human Rights
>
>Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT)
>
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