[Gnso-igo-ingo-crp] MP3 IGO WG - Monday 15 September 2014 at 1900 UTC

Mon Sep 15 21:15:49 UTC 2014

Dear All,

Please find the MP3 recording for IGO-INGO Access to Curative Rights Protection Mechanisms Working Group call on Monday 15 September 2014 at 1900 UTC at:

http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-igo-ingo-crp-access-20140915-en.mp3

On page: 

http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#sep

The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:

 <http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/> http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/

Attendees: 

Imran Ahmed Shah – NCUC

Phil Corwin – BC

George Kirikos - Individual

Jay Chapman – Individual

Jim Bikoff – IPC

Nat Cohen – BC

Osvaldo Novoa – ISPCP

Paul Tattersfield – Individual

Petter Rindforth – IPC

Val Sherman – IPC

Griffin Barnett – IPC

Reg Levy – RySG

Kristine Dorrain – Individual

David Heasley – IPC

Apologies:

John Mcgrann – RrSG

David Maher – RySG

Mason Cole – RySG

ICANN staff:

Mary Wong

Steve Chan

Nathalie Peregrine

** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **

Mailing list archives: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/ 

Wiki page:

https://community.icann.org/x/97rhAg  

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Nathalie 

-------------------------------

 Adobe Connect chat transcript for Monday 15 September 2014:

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Dear all, welcome to the  IGO-INGO Curative Rights Protection PDP WG Meeting on the 15h September 2014

  Val Sherman:Hello All! Jim Bikoff, David Heasley and Griffin Barnett also on call

  Osvaldo Novoa:Hello all!

  George Kirikos:Hi folks.

  Nathalie  Peregrine:thanks Val, noted

  Mary Wong:Hello everyone

  George Kirikos:Did everyone have a nice weekend?

  Mary Wong:Not too bad, George, from my side, thanks! Hope you did!

  Jay Chapman:Hi, Everyone

  George Kirikos:Hi Jay.

  Nat Cohen:Hello all

  George Kirikos:Hey Nat.

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Kristine Dorrain has joined the AC room

  Mary Wong:I can also pull up the full Gantt chart if you like, Phil.

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Reg Levy has joined the AC room

  Petter Rindforth:I am happy to join Sub Group A

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Imran Ahmed Shah is also in the AC room

  Mary Wong:@Petter, noted, thanks

  Reg - M+M:Has Cheryl Langdon-Orr been called?

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Paul Keating has joined the AC room

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Cheryl is not a member of this group

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:Is it a given that I'm on subgroup A?  :)  I hope so.

  Petter Rindforth:I welcome you!!!

  Mary Wong:@Kristine, I think so! :)

  Philip Corwin:I will join B

  paul Keating:paul keating.  i would also like to join B

  George Kirikos:I'd be happy to join B.

  George Kirikos:For the 3rd part of Group A, I'd suggest getting ALL, rather than a "representative sample".

  George Kirikos:Because, there are so few who've filed UDRP/URS amongst IGOs/INGOs, that if we shrink that to a "sample", it won't be statistically significant.

  paul Keating:agreed.  there cannot be that many.  i would also like to see the complaints and any responses relative the the UDRP/URS

  Mary Wong:There is a wiki page that lists George's suggestions for finding data - https://community.icann.org/x/48PhAg

  George Kirikos:In the background materials from Friday, some of those case studies were ancient, i.e. 12 years old.

  George Kirikos:Which is 84 years in dog years/internet years. :-)

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:I agree, George.  Just know that going through over 40,000 UDRP decisions will take a while.  We don't separate cases by complainant type and I don't think WIPO does either, even I reach out and ask them to help me.  so my presentation will not fully address Item 3.

  George Kirikos:And, they're merely anecdotal, rather than scientific research studies that comprehensively survey a sample of the universe of IGOs/INGOs.

  paul Keating:can we obtain copies of the I/Ngo submissions to the prior WG

  Mary Wong:@George, understood - that was also noted in the Issue Report for this WG.

  Mary Wong:@Paul, there were Minority Statements published as part of the Final Report for that PDP WG. I will find the link.

  Mary Wong:Some of the Background Documents - some of which we'll cover under Item 3 - have references and informaton in them too.

  George Kirikos:Agree with Phil --- I think having 6 or 7+ team members for group B might help a lot.

  paul Keating:how does one become designated as an IGO or INGO??

  Paul Tattersfield:Is there single list of the 40,000 decisions?

  George Kirikos:UDRPSearch.com has nearly all of them indexed.

  Mary Wong:@Paul, this was a question tackled in a number of prior efforts. For this WG, we are following the list developed by our predecessor WG.

  George Kirikos:But, there are....5 UDRP providers? Plus the defunct eResolution.

  George Kirikos:Agree with speaker --- if not on the calls, a broad survey (ie. outreach) is needed.

  Imran Ahmed Shah:Please count me in Sub WG B

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:George, WIPO and NAF have about 97 or 98% of the cases, the rest of the providers are probably pretty easily surveyed.

  George Kirikos:True, Kristine.

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:And even though UDRP Search has them all, there is still the question of how to run queries.  Most UDRP decisions will not contain the term "NGO".

  paul Keating:@mary,  if we are to consider a curative remedy we need to understand how one can take advantage.  there must be a basic "standing" issue.

  George Kirikos:Kristine: I think to find them, one would have to work backwards. Find the ones that aren't IGOs (e.g. search for "Inc." or "Lego", etc. as a complainant, and remove those from the database.

  George Kirikos:Keep removing them, and then manually review the leftovers.

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:Interesting strategy....  :)

  Petter Rindforth:I presume it is possible to find them by searching for the name of the Complainant

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:Yes, that would work depending on how many NGOs there are.  I just heard someone say 5K?

  George Kirikos:No, it's much larger, Kristine.

  George Kirikos:That Yearbook had something like 60,000+ entries.

  George Kirikos:http://www.uia.org/yearbook

  George Kirikos:(66,000 entries)

  Petter Rindforth:Well we are 3 in the Sub WG, let's take 20 000 each ;-)

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:Funny...

  Reg - M+M:Creating yet another dispute resolution process when one is already in place is needlessly confusing.

  Reg - M+M:and burdensom

  George Kirikos:Reg: there are lots of other reasons to be concerned. Because, the "immunity" issue has only ever been used as a "shielf".

  George Kirikos:oops, "shield"

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:Reg, at initial glance, I hear you.  A lot.  But trying to have one policy with "two tracks" I think is fraught with danger at confusing panelists and providers.

  George Kirikos:Not as a "sword", whereby the IGOs/INGOs can compel a 3rd party to be forced to defend outside their National Courts.

  Reg - M+M:These two IGOs (and the others that have been included because it was noticed that they were seeking special treatment) have avenues they can pursue, by treaty, trying to get special treatment through ICANN is, again, unnecessary

  George Kirikos:e.g. if an IGO/INGO breaks my window, and I sue them for $500, they can claim immunity from a Toronto court.

  Reg - M+M:+1 George Kirikos

  George Kirikos:But, if I break their window, and they want $1000 from me, they can't force me to go to a UN-run arbitration.

  paul Keating:@Mary, it is also possible to conclude nothing is required?

  George Kirikos:I hope the members of Group A can gather stats on how many UDRPs are ever appealed to courts.

  George Kirikos:Because, that's a critical statistic.

  paul Keating:@george, they rely upon others to inform them.

  George Kirikos:IGOs/INGOs concerned about immunity are concerned that if they won a UDRP, the registrant would appeal to a court.

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:George, that's almost impossible to know.

  George Kirikos:If only a small fractionof cases are ever appealed, then there's no real concern.

  George Kirikos:Kristine: It's not impossible. Registrars must transfer within 10 days, unless there's an appeal to courts.

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:Yes, but they don't have to tell us.

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:and most don't.

  George Kirikos:So, Registrars would certainly know how many times they had to hold off on a transfer, because of a legal action.

  George Kirikos:Registrars would have the data. E.g. GoDaddy Legal, Tucows Legal, NSI, etc.

  George Kirikos:The top 10 registrars can be asked for their stats (presumably they account for a large share of UDRPs).

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:Registrar's do get court orders.  Whether or not they sort them by "post UDRP" or "no UDRP" would be interesting.

  Petter Rindforth:George - good idea and duly noticed

  Reg - M+M:Kristine, can you speak to the confusion-for-panels issue and how that might indicate that IGOs don't deserve the rights/special treatment they're claiming?

  paul Keating:@phil, this is key for standing purposes

  Kristine Dorrain-NAF:Yes, Reg, I can include that in my presentation next week, if that's ok?

  George Kirikos:Those lists were posted to the Wiki, I think.

  Reg - M+M:sure, thank you

  paul Keating:@mary, does the Paris Convention contain a definition for NGO?

  Mary Wong:@Paul, I don't believe so.

  George Kirikos:Question: Will ICANN staff support be available to each of the Sub Groups? (and do we have some budgets, e.g. to go out and obtain the yearbook, etc.)?

  paul Keating:@phil,  what does it take to be an NGO or INGO?

  Mary Wong:@George, our practice is to have each Sub Group organize themselves and request he support they need. 

  paul Keating:so it sounds like......i am an NGO because I say so and have a number of influential people who say I am?

  George Kirikos:ISO is on the reserved list.

  Mary Wong:@George, that's actually the Int'l Sugar Org, not the Intl' Standards Org, ...

  Mary Wong:I think

  Mary Wong:@Jim, that would be Claudia McMaster Tamarit?

  George Kirikos:Oh, ok.

  paul Keating:@Phil,  we need to test the list and be caredul not to accept prior lists.

  paul Keating:@phil, cannot speak.

  paul Keating:please read out my questions....

  paul Keating:convention

  George Kirikos:Paris Convention

  Petter Rindforth:Maybe Mary can make a quick info on our new dates for meetings?

  George Kirikos:http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/text.jsp?file_id=288514

  George Kirikos:(Article 6)

  George Kirikos:+1 Phil

  Jay Chapman:Agree, Phil

  George Kirikos:We can hold a "draft" to allocate those who've not volunteered themselves to a subgroup, yet. :-)

  Imran Ahmed Shah:good idea

  George Kirikos:Next week, we'll be on Wednesday, correct?

  Mary Wong:Should staff put that in the email, George? :)

  Mary Wong:Yes

  Mary Wong:Weds at 1600 UTC

  George Kirikos:So, next steps? By next week, allocate the Sub GRoups?

  George Kirikos:Any other "takeaways" from today?

  paul Keating:thank you all.

  Mary Wong:Thanks everyone

  paul Keating:i need to sign off.  thanks for the call

  Petter Rindforth:Thanks!

  George Kirikos:Bye everyone. 

  Jay Chapman:Good day, everyone

  Paul Tattersfield:thanks all

  Imran Ahmed Shah:Good Bye

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