[Gnso-igo-ingo-crp] Intention to File another Section 3.7 appeal (was Re: Our next meeting and Result of consensus Call: IGO-INGO Access to Curative Rights Protection Mechanisms WG meeting on Tuesday, 12 June 2018 16:00 UTC)
George Kirikos
icann at leap.com
Sun Jun 10 04:32:26 UTC 2018
[For those I've cc'd on this email, see:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/date.html
and
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001238.html
("initial designations document" is attachment is at very end of the
page) ]
I am incredulous at Mary and Steve's nonchalant response to the email
thread, seemingly ignoring the fact that the document that was sent to
the mailing list today was replete with errors. I had thought that
this was a product solely of Petter's creation, but it looks like
there's blame to go around --- the metadata of the document that was
sent to the list shows the "author" was "Mary Wong". So, it appears
that the document had received multiple views by them, and even after
this email thread, it seems it's "business as usual" at their end, as
if nothing is wrong. Truly stunning.
Besides the problems that were **already** pointed out, there's the fact that:
1. Mike Rodenbaugh's input was completely ignored! How hard is it to read:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001221.html
and then go back to:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-May/001167.html
2. David Maher's input was completely ignored! His was the very first
response at:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-May/001214.html
and his name is *nowhere* in the document!
3, Zak and Nat are listed as *supporters* of Option #3 (i.e. the
arbitration), when they were against:
Zak: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001225.html
"I understand *Option 3* and appreciate the objective and rationale behind
it, although I cannot support it in its present form.
Nat: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001228.html
"I write in support of Zak's positions, and add the following comments-
*Option #3* - if a procedure was created that genuinely resulted in
transfers only in cases of blatant cybersquatting, and that adequately
protected the rights of domain investors - which the UDRP does not - then I
would be open to giving it strong consideration."
It's very odd to count that as "support" for Option #3 -- that's not
how I read it at all, given Nat (and Zak) supported Option #1.
4. there could be even more errors (i.e. folks should double-check
what was listed in that document)
Does anyone truly believe that, in a week (remember, the "deadline" is
supposedly June 17) we can (a) fix all the errors in the designations
(b) have time for objections (i.e. the iterative process in section
3.6 of the working group guidelines), (c) review a draft final report
(there were long sections missing), (d) submit comments/amend that
draft final report, (e) agree to all the relevant changes for the
final report, (f) leave time for those who want to make minority
statements (which they can't really do until the final report is close
to finalization).
The most recent draft final report was from May 9:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-May/001164.html
and there's really very little good text discussing recommendation #5
(i.e. capturing the full debate that took place, pros/cons, etc., so
that a reader of the report could actually understand them). Go look
at page 44 to 48 -- is that it? It's mostly spent just listing the
options, and then a whole bunch of process stuff, but nothing that
would lead a reader to understand why this was debated for over a
year. There's obviously other sections that need to be fixed too.
Remember, there's only *1* call scheduled (this Tuesday), and then no
other calls are scheduled.
Normally, there's a 2 week clock that *begins* when a close-to-final
draft final report is circulated, *along* with the specification of
the "initial designation levels" (which Petter only provided a few
hours ago) -- see the examples of past PDPs I mentioned at the top of
my earlier email:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001219.html
If we had a 2 week clock that started when we actually receive a new
draft, then that might be reasonable. Then, maybe another week to
finalize edits. But, this would be with the draft document being
actively updated, and folks actively submitting comments. I don't see
how that would happen, given that folks are now also getting ready for
the upcoming ICANN meeting.
I asked repeatedly that we keep up our weekly calls, so we could drive
the work forward, but it didn't happen. Go look at the wiki -- we had
a call April 19, May 10, May 25, and that was it! Huge gaps of wasted
time, where we should have been doing what we're now asked to do in a
single week.
Anyhow, if folks believe we can finish everything in a week, that
normally takes three or four weeks, convince me. I'm willing to put in
the work do so, but I can't do it all. That means people actively
reading the reports, agreeing *swifly* to edits (obviously takes much
longer if there is debate about the changes)
Otherwise, I think it's best we aim for the July GNSO Council meeting
(July 19th, documents due July 9th) for finalization of our work. This
would still require weekly calls, to get things edited properly.
I'm going to bed, but I'll wait and see if anyone can convince me by 4
pm Toronto time on Sunday (different time zones, so some of you might
fix that document Petter circulated, we might see a draft final report
to review, who knows). At that time, I'll decide whether to formalize
this.
NB: If I do invoke a section 3.7 appeal, it's not intended to *stop*
the coming call on Tuesday, or stop any of the work we're doing. It's
only intended to prevent a half-baked unreviewed/unedited document to
be sent to GNSO Council a week from now -- we'd still work on that,
regardless of the outcome of the Section 3.7. I'll make myself readily
available to Petter/Susan/Heather so they can decide things quickly.
My preference would be that Susan and Heather take a look at the
shoddy work represented by that document we saw a few hours ago,
replete with errors, and realize that folks really need to raise the
standards of the output being produced. Imposing an artificial
deadline isn't good for quality control.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos
416-588-0269
http://www.leap.com/
P.S. Kudos to Reg for stepping up and offering to do her own summary
of the feedback on Sunday morning (I intend to do the same,
independently).
On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 10:35 PM, Mary Wong <mary.wong at icann.org> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Thank you to all who have weighed in with their views as to the various proposed policy recommendations and the six options relating to immunity. This note is being sent to remind everyone that the consensus call process is not a formal voting process. As Working Group chair, Petter had sent his views as to the initial designations of consensus (based on the standard methodology outlined in the GNSO Working Group Guidelines) and staff will work with him and Susan to ensure that the group's concerns, agreements and disagreements, if any, are captured and discussed as appropriate.
>
> Staff is also working on updating the draft Final Report with some of the suggestions made that seem consistent with the overall discussions and agreements reached. We hope to circulate an update very soon.
>
> Thanks and cheers
> Mary & Steve
>
> On 6/10/18, 08:02, "Gnso-igo-ingo-crp on behalf of Reg Levy" <gnso-igo-ingo-crp-bounces at icann.org on behalf of rlevy at tucows.com> wrote:
>
> I agree that the collection of votes appears to indicate support where the emails I saw did not indicate support and consensus in some places where there should be divergence. Also, although some people only voted for (or against) certain options, most weighed in on all options, which doesn’t appear reflected in the report. I’ll try to do a summary in the morning of the “votes”.
>
> Reg Levy
> (310) 963-7135
>
> Sent from my iPhone.
>
> > On Jun 9, 2018, at 16:13, George Kirikos <icann at leap.com> wrote:
> >
> > P.S. An obvious error, for Recommendation #4. I'm listed as the only
> > person against subsidies for IGOs. That's incorrect, given Reg was
> > *vehemently* against that recommendation too:
> >
> > https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001234.html
> >
> > "I am also vehemently opposed to any subsidization of any party's costs."
> >
> > Not only did she write that orally, she made that unequivocally clear
> > on the phone calls. Go check the recordings/transcripts (or she might
> > want to weigh in again).
> >
> > Anyhow, it's 7 pm on a Saturday night, and I have a life. Others
> > can/should weigh in as they please, but this is another sloppy effort
> > that needs to get fixed before it ever gets to GNSO Council.
> >
> > I'm sympathetic to the fact that Petter appears to have worked alone
> > on this (although, I thought Susan and/or staff would have been part
> > of the team assisting, given the section 3.7 appeal and her higher
> > profile at this point as liaison, and perhaps the greater scrutiny
> > that would be expected), and there's a time crunch. But, that time
> > crunch wasn't imposed by me. Do we want to do things fast, or do we
> > want to do it right?
> >
> > I want to stress that I'm not trying to change anyone's positions ---
> > I just want to make sure we accurately capture everyone's
> > positions/analysis and accurately capture the correct consensus
> > designation levels.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > George Kirikos
> > 416-588-0269
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.leap.com_&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=ydaQgI3go-Ww7JniUpxX2luiVRbAy319KWrDmYf-Hl4&s=rkpr6Tg0j8nkwLZ5D43wNiX9DZbXx1bRIM6sKP4GcyY&e=
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 6:55 PM, George Kirikos <icann at leap.com> wrote:
> >> Hi folks,
> >>
> >> 1) First off, it's entirely incorrect to call those the Results of the
> >> Consensus call. They're the initial designation levels of consensus,
> >> and are open to challenge and further revisions via the iterative
> >> process of Section 3.6 of the Working Group Guidelines. The initial
> >> designation levels are accompanied with a draft final report ---- we
> >> should be given the draft final report, too, to review, ASAP. *That's*
> >> what starts the true "Consensus Call" as per the working group
> >> guidelines, i.e. the Draft Final Report + the Initial Designation
> >> Levels.
> >>
> >> 2) Secondly, I noticed Jim Bikoff sent an email a few minutes ago
> >> which appeared to change his support? i.e. on June 5, 2018 he wrote:
> >>
> >> https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001217.html
> >>
> >> "On the six policy options for a possible Recommendation Five, I can
> >> support Option Four but only if Option One does not receive enough
> >> support."
> >>
> >> but then a few minutes ago, he wrote:
> >>
> >> https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001240.html
> >>
> >> "Also I do not support any of the policy options except No. 4."
> >>
> >> I don't understand what's going on there.
> >>
> >> 3) Thirdly, it's pretty obvious some of the results are misstated,
> >> e.g. my interpretation of Jim's June 5, 2018 email would have
> >> prioritized Option #1, but then Option #4 if there was no consensus
> >> for Option #1. [although, now today's email seems to change that]
> >>
> >> When Reg wrote:
> >>
> >> https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001234.html
> >>
> >> I'd interpret it the same way, i.e. Option #1 first, then only #4 if necessary.
> >>
> >> In other words, the way Petter's table has summarized things, it's
> >> "binary". Contrast this with the much more detailed analysis I did
> >> last time (this is based on the prior thread about public display of
> >> possible consensus, and hasn't been updated yet):
> >>
> >> https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-May/001172.html
> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreadsheets_d_e_2PACX-2D1vQrdpthCvFIGoECeVWbAuz315diOKXIj2JoO5XhLzk7C-5F9ariI3NKF8oOLt3PMsBIZg6JMXSvCiOANV_pubhtml&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=ydaQgI3go-Ww7JniUpxX2luiVRbAy319KWrDmYf-Hl4&s=RyQ1AJ_1K06NElqzio56UIuAzA5E4vszQkCPZtST-1I&e=
> >>
> >> where it's not binary. I plan to redo that kind of spreadsheet with
> >> the newer responses at some point.
> >>
> >> The same goes for Recommendation #2 where only 4 folks' input is
> >> indicated, and thus it's showing "divergence"??!!?? i.e. I'm not
> >> against that recommendation --- I just want the language corrected.
> >> i.e. I'm against it as written, but only because staff has continually
> >> been imprecise. Furthermore, I think some people's silence on the
> >> issue isn't "dissent" -- it might actually be support (i.e. they might
> >> be relying on their past input on issues, and not just their most
> >> recent responses in the past 2 weeks).
> >>
> >> Anyhow, this is a mess. I'll have more detailed thoughts and analysis
> >> later, but just wanted to put these out to get the discussion going.
> >>
> >> This is *exactly* why we should have kept up with the weekly phone
> >> calls, by the way! This is entirely the kind of thing that could have
> >> been avoided, had the lines of communication been kept active. Now we
> >> have a truncated and artificial deadline to fix this all up, or be
> >> compelled to argue about "process" all over again (i.e. another
> >> Section 3.7 disputing the results, blah blah blah). Let's try to work
> >> hard and fix this mess, so we don't have to do that again.
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >>
> >> George Kirikos
> >> 416-588-0269
> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.leap.com_&d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=ydaQgI3go-Ww7JniUpxX2luiVRbAy319KWrDmYf-Hl4&s=rkpr6Tg0j8nkwLZ5D43wNiX9DZbXx1bRIM6sKP4GcyY&e=
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Petter Rindforth
> >> <petter.rindforth at fenixlegal.eu> wrote:
> >>> Dear All WG Members,
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for participating in our formal consensus call.
> >>>
> >>> I have studied your "votes" and comments, and made a summary at the attached
> >>> document, to discuss further on Tuesday.
> >>>
> >>> For your information, as informed in the GNSO Working Group Guidelines:
> >>>
> >>> Full consensus: when no one in the group speaks against the recommendation
> >>> in its last readings. This is also sometimes referred to as Unanimous
> >>> Consensus.
> >>>
> >>> Consensus: a position where only a small minority disagrees but most agree.
> >>>
> >>> Strong support but significant opposition: a position where while most of
> >>> the group supports a recommendation, there are a significant number of those
> >>> who do not support it.
> >>>
> >>> Divergence: also referred to as No Consensus - a position where there isn't
> >>> strong support for any particular position, but many different points of
> >>> view. Sometimes this is due to irreconcilable differences of opinion and
> >>> sometimes it is due to the fact that no one has a particularly strong or
> >>> convincing viewpoint, but the members of the group agree that it is worth
> >>> listing the issue in the report nonetheless.
> >>>
> >>> Minority View: refers to a proposal where a small number of people support
> >>> the recommendation. This can happen in response to a Consensus, Strong
> >>> support but significant opposition, and No Consensus, or can happen in cases
> >>> where there is neither support nor opposition to a suggestion made by a
> >>> small number of individuals
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> All the best,
> >>> Petter
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Petter Rindforth, LL M
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Fenix Legal KB
> >>> Stureplan 4c, 4tr
> >>> 114 35 Stockholm
> >>> Sweden
> >>> Fax: +46(0)8-4631010
> >>> Direct phone: +46(0)702-369360
> >>> E-mail: petter.rindforth at fenixlegal.eu
> >>> www.fenixlegal.eu
> >>>
> >>> NOTICE
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 5 juni 2018 19:02:40 +02:00, skrev Andrea Glandon
> >>> <andrea.glandon at icann.org>:
> >>>
> >>> Dear all,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The IGO-INGO Access to Curative Rights Protection Mechanisms meeting will
> >>> take place on Tuesday, 12 June 2018 at 16:00 UTC for 90 minutes.
> >>>
> >>> 09:00 PDT, 12:00 EDT, 18:00 Paris CEST, 21:00 Karachi PKT, (Wednesday) 01:00
> >>> Tokyo JST, (Wednesday) 02:00 Melbourne AEST
> >>>
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> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>
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> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 001-803-011-3982
> >>>
> >>> IRELAND
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 353-1-246-7646
> >>>
> >>> 1800-992-368
> >>>
> >>> ISRAEL
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 1-80-9216162
> >>>
> >>> ITALY
> >>>
> >>> MILAN:
> >>>
> >>> 39-02-3600-6007
> >>>
> >>> 800-986-383
> >>>
> >>> ITALY
> >>>
> >>> ROME:
> >>>
> >>> 39-06-8751-6018
> >>>
> >>> 800-986-383
> >>>
> >>> ITALY
> >>>
> >>> TORINO:
> >>>
> >>> 39-011-510-0118
> >>>
> >>> 800-986-383
> >>>
> >>> JAPAN
> >>>
> >>> OSAKA:
> >>>
> >>> 81-6-7878-2631
> >>>
> >>> 0066-33-132439
> >>>
> >>> JAPAN
> >>>
> >>> TOKYO:
> >>>
> >>> 81-3-6868-2631
> >>>
> >>> 0066-33-132439
> >>>
> >>> LATVIA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 8000-3185
> >>>
> >>> LUXEMBOURG
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 352-27-000-1364
> >>>
> >>> 8002-9246
> >>>
> >>> MALAYSIA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 1-800-81-3065
> >>>
> >>> MEXICO
> >>>
> >>> GUADALAJARA (JAL):
> >>>
> >>> 52-33-3208-7310
> >>>
> >>> 001-866-376-9696
> >>>
> >>> MEXICO
> >>>
> >>> MEXICO CITY:
> >>>
> >>> 52-55-5062-9110
> >>>
> >>> 001-866-376-9696
> >>>
> >>> MEXICO
> >>>
> >>> MONTERREY:
> >>>
> >>> 52-81-2482-0610
> >>>
> >>> 001-866-376-9696
> >>>
> >>> NETHERLANDS
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 31-20-718-8588
> >>>
> >>> 0800-023-4378
> >>>
> >>> NEW ZEALAND
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 64-9-970-4771
> >>>
> >>> 0800-447-722
> >>>
> >>> NORWAY
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 47-21-590-062
> >>>
> >>> 800-15157
> >>>
> >>> PANAMA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 011-001-800-5072065
> >>>
> >>> PERU
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 0800-53713
> >>>
> >>> PHILIPPINES
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 63-2-858-3716
> >>>
> >>> 1800-111-42453
> >>>
> >>> POLAND
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 00-800-1212572
> >>>
> >>> PORTUGAL
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 351-2-10054705
> >>>
> >>> 8008-14052
> >>>
> >>> ROMANIA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 40-31-630-01-79
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> RUSSIA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 8-10-8002-0144011
> >>>
> >>> SAUDI ARABIA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 800-8-110087
> >>>
> >>> SINGAPORE
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 65-6883-9230
> >>>
> >>> 800-120-4663
> >>>
> >>> SLOVAK REPUBLIC
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 421-2-322-422-25
> >>>
> >>> 0800-002066
> >>>
> >>> SOUTH AFRICA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 080-09-80414
> >>>
> >>> SOUTH KOREA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 82-2-6744-1083
> >>>
> >>> 00798-14800-7352
> >>>
> >>> SPAIN
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 34-91-414-25-33
> >>>
> >>> 800-300-053
> >>>
> >>> SWEDEN
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 46-8-566-19-348
> >>>
> >>> 0200-884-622
> >>>
> >>> SWITZERLAND
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 41-44-580-6398
> >>>
> >>> 0800-120-032
> >>>
> >>> TAIWAN
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 886-2-2795-7379
> >>>
> >>> 00801-137-797
> >>>
> >>> THAILAND
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 001-800-1206-66056
> >>>
> >>> TURKEY
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 00-800-151-0516
> >>>
> >>> UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 8000-35702370
> >>>
> >>> UNITED KINGDOM
> >>>
> >>> BIRMINGHAM:
> >>>
> >>> 44-121-210-9025
> >>>
> >>> 0808-238-6029
> >>>
> >>> UNITED KINGDOM
> >>>
> >>> GLASGOW:
> >>>
> >>> 44-141-202-3225
> >>>
> >>> 0808-238-6029
> >>>
> >>> UNITED KINGDOM
> >>>
> >>> LEEDS:
> >>>
> >>> 44-113-301-2125
> >>>
> >>> 0808-238-6029
> >>>
> >>> UNITED KINGDOM
> >>>
> >>> LONDON:
> >>>
> >>> 44-20-7108-6370
> >>>
> >>> 0808-238-6029
> >>>
> >>> UNITED KINGDOM
> >>>
> >>> MANCHESTER:
> >>>
> >>> 44-161-601-1425
> >>>
> >>> 0808-238-6029
> >>>
> >>> URUGUAY
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 000-413-598-3421
> >>>
> >>> USA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 1-517-345-9004
> >>>
> >>> 866-692-5726
> >>>
> >>> VENEZUELA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 0800-1-00-3702
> >>>
> >>> VIETNAM
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 120-11751
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Ntfy-gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list
> >>> Ntfy-gnso-igo-ingo-crp at icann.org
> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ntfy-gnso-igo-ingo-crp
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list
> >>> Gnso-igo-ingo-crp at icann.org
> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list
> > Gnso-igo-ingo-crp at icann.org
> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Gnso-igo-ingo-crp at icann.org
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
>
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