[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Tue Feb 13 16:38:53 UTC 2018
"That it is better /100/ guilty Persons should escape /than/ that /one
innocent/ Person should suffer"
- Benjamin Franklin
Am 13.02.2018 um 17:35 schrieb Chen, Tim:
> and neither will a lot of bad actors, online criminals and miscreants.
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 8:28 AM, Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>
> But the only ones facing the fines or imprisonment of officers.
> Will you face government fines or prison if you can no longer look
> at whois? No? Thought so!
>
>
> Am 13.02.2018 um 17:23 schrieb Dotzero:
>> Volcker,
>>
>> Registrars are not the only constituency with a stake in this.
>>
>> Michael Hammer
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:13 AM, Volker Greimann
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> no, sensible because a great number of registrars will be
>> forced to deal with this anyway, because this will affect a
>> great many of registrations and therefore it makes sense to
>> take this as a basis. Of course we will then need to see if
>> there need to be tweaks to accomodate for other
>> jurisdictions, but as more as more countries are adopting
>> similar regimes....
>>
>> Sure it will be more restrictive than open access and some
>> people may have a harder time than today getting at certain
>> information, but with tiered access access would still be
>> possible for those with overriding legitimate interests. That
>> is the model the EU commission hinted at. Not the only model,
>> but a working one.
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>> Am 13.02.2018 um 17:04 schrieb Dotzero:
>>> Volker, you assert that "it would be sensible to take GDPR
>>> as a basis and start from there". Perhaps sensible from your
>>> perspective and easier from your perspective but ICANN is an
>>> international organization - primarily dealing with
>>> technical/administrative issues - and it MUST take an
>>> approach that, as best it can, accommodates the laws and
>>> practices of various jurisdictions around the world. Your
>>> proposed approach, quite simply does not do that.
>>>
>>> Michael Hammer
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM, Volker Greimann
>>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think that it would be sensible to take the GDPR as a
>>> basis and start from there. Obviously, where it
>>> conflicts with other applicable laws, we should make
>>> sure to accomodate those as well, but as the EU
>>> Commission and others have pointed out is that
>>> compliance with GDPR does not preclude providing certain
>>> access levels to certain parties. What those levels
>>> would be and who those parties could be should be the
>>> main focus of our work.
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 13.02.2018 um 15:41 schrieb Chuck:
>>>>
>>>> Volker,
>>>>
>>>> Are you saying that you think that RDS policies should
>>>> be designed to comply with European regulations and
>>>> then applied to all other jurisdictions in the world?
>>>>
>>>> Chuck
>>>>
>>>> *From:*Volker Greimann
>>>> [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>]
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:58 AM
>>>> *To:* Chuck <consult at cgomes.com>
>>>> <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>; 'Michael Palage'
>>>> <michael at palage.com> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
>>>> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>>>>
>>>> I am afraid that if we create different policies for
>>>> different regions, we will break the model, encourage
>>>> forum shopping and encourage firewalling of entire
>>>> geographic sections of the net. I hope that is not what
>>>> we are doing here.
>>>>
>>>> GDPR will cause some breakage of this and I see it as
>>>> our mission to fix this breakage of the standard by
>>>> proposing a unified model once again.
>>>>
>>>> Ultimately, if this solution does what the EU has been
>>>> asking for, e.g. protect legitimate use cases of
>>>> registration data as well as the rights of the data
>>>> subjects, there is no reason why it should not be
>>>> universally applicable.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Volker
>>>>
>>>> Am 13.02.2018 um 00:04 schrieb Chuck:
>>>>
>>>> Volker,
>>>>
>>>> The WG could recommend policies that are
>>>> ‘universally applicable to all registrations’ but I
>>>> seriously doubt that will happen in today’s world.
>>>> That would be much simpler than policies that vary
>>>> by region and users, but is it realistic?
>>>>
>>>> Chuck
>>>>
>>>> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] *On
>>>> Behalf Of *Volker Greimann
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 2:30 PM
>>>> *To:* Michael Palage <michael at palage.com>
>>>> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
>>>> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>>>>
>>>> Michael is right. ICANN iOS based on the thought of
>>>> “One World; one Internet”. This also means that the
>>>> policies it creates should be universally
>>>> applicable to all registrations, if possible. IF we
>>>> start creating policy that diverges, that would
>>>> only lead to further fragmentation and undermine
>>>> the founding ideal of ICANN itself. Our aim should
>>>> be to create one policy that can be applied to all
>>>> or most registrations and that can be implemented
>>>> by all registrars alike.
>>>>
>>>> While we will likely have a certain amount of
>>>> fragmentation following May 25 as each contracted
>>>> party applies its own solution, it should be our
>>>> goal to overcome this and present a new unified
>>>> policy that works for all contracted parties.
>>>>
>>>> Volker
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12. Feb 2018, at 20:27, Michael Palage
>>>> <michael at palage.com
>>>> <mailto:michael at palage.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg/John,
>>>>
>>>> I will respectfully push back on your legal
>>>> over simplification of the GDPR.
>>>>
>>>> The exterritorial aspect of the GDPR set forth
>>>> in Article 3 is NOT just limited to EU
>>>> residents/citizens. As Michele has noted in
>>>> the past, the GDPR requires BlackKnight as an
>>>> Irish legal entity to protect all of its
>>>> customers data (EU/Non-EU) in compliance with
>>>> GDPR, as well as US entities that target and
>>>> conduct business within the EU.
>>>>
>>>> Now your points about the distinction between
>>>> natural and legal persons is a fair one and one
>>>> that has been noted in EU and Art 29
>>>> communications. Could you please share the
>>>> basis of your proposition that 97% of all
>>>> domain name registrations are registered by
>>>> legal entities.
>>>>
>>>> As I have note previously the long term
>>>> viability of the ICANN multi-stakeholder model
>>>> is at risk as national governments continue to
>>>> pass national laws that impact the operation of
>>>> the Internet. However, the European Union is
>>>> NOT alone in advancing Privacy Legislation, in
>>>> fact data localization is perhaps the next
>>>> biggest lurking threat to the domain name system.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On
>>>> Behalf Of*John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>> *Sent:*Monday, February 12, 2018 1:22 PM
>>>> *To:*Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
>>>> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>
>>>> *Cc:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs.
>>>> lawful
>>>>
>>>> I think Greg is right on. There's simply no
>>>> justification to force a law that is only
>>>> intended to apply to a) EU residents/citizens
>>>> that are b) natural persons not using the
>>>> domain name for commercial purposes, to the
>>>> remaining...what? 97% - 99% of the world's
>>>> registrant population? That would be a balanced
>>>> way to implement all of this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Horton
>>>> President and CEO, LegitScript
>>>>
>>>> *Follow****Legit**Script*: LinkedIn
>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com>
>>>> | Facebook
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript> |
>>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/legitscript> |
>>>> _Blog
>>>> <http://blog.legitscript.com/>_ |Newsletter
>>>> <http://go.legitscript.com/Subscription-Management.html>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Greg Aaron
>>>> <gca at icginc.com <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don’t know if we arrive at the same place.
>>>>
>>>> GDPR is based on one principle. It states
>>>> what is legal. It's explicit about what
>>>> you _are allowed to do_; granted there’s
>>>> some flexibility and room for
>>>> interpretation. It’s like saying what’s
>>>> inside a box.
>>>>
>>>> U.S. law is one based on different
>>>> principles. AFAIK U.S. consumer protection
>>>> law does not enumerate specifically what is
>>>> lawful. Instead it tends to state what is
>>>> illegal, what you are _not allowed to
>>>> do_. It’s like saying what’s outside the
>>>> box. The U.S. doesn’t have something like
>>>> GDPR that spells out legal bases for
>>>> collecting data, i.e. the enumerated
>>>> allowable reasons. Instead the trade and
>>>> consumer protection laws basically say:
>>>> entities have the right to form contracts
>>>> between themselves, they should live up to
>>>> the contract, don’t surprise people, don’t
>>>> do certain dishonest things.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the problem: if one makes the GDPR
>>>> principle the ICANN standard and you apply
>>>> it to all registrations, then practices
>>>> that are allowable in one place under the
>>>> law (like the U.S.) would no longer be
>>>> allowed there by ICANN policy. ICANN would
>>>> be choosing one legal approach or regime
>>>> for everyone in the world.
>>>>
>>>> The alternative is to apply the GDRP only
>>>> to those that it is designed to protect:
>>>> registrants in the EU.
>>>>
>>>> For example, there’s nothing in U.S. law
>>>> that prohibits a U.S. registrar from having
>>>> a contract that says publication of full
>>>> contact data in WHOIS is a condition of
>>>> registering a domain name if you are a
>>>> registrant in the U.S.
>>>>
>>>> Seehttps://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/
>>>> <https://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/>
>>>> for more.
>>>>
>>>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On
>>>> Behalf Of*Silver, Bradley via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>> *Sent:*Friday, February 9, 2018 2:54 PM
>>>> *To:*Volker Greimann
>>>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>;gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis
>>>> vs. lawful
>>>>
>>>> It is true that the GDPR is prescriptive,
>>>> although also rather open-ended (hence our
>>>> current pickle). But regardless of the
>>>> term we use, don’t we arrive at the same
>>>> place: which is that if something that
>>>> requires a legal basis is done without one,
>>>> it will be unlawful? Using Kathy’s example,
>>>> if data is processed without complying with
>>>> minimization or purpose principles, will
>>>> such processing not run afoul of the law,
>>>> and hence be unlawful?
>>>>
>>>> There are important distinctions between
>>>> the meaning of “legal basis” which implies
>>>> that a law requires something to be
>>>> affirmatively present, versus “lawful”,
>>>> which means that something is not
>>>> prohibited by law. Ultimately though, isn’t
>>>> “lawfulness”, the same end point, regardless?
>>>>
>>>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On
>>>> Behalf Of*Volker Greimann
>>>> *Sent:*Friday, February 09, 2018 11:27 AM
>>>> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis
>>>> vs. lawful
>>>>
>>>> I do not see how. Kathy's analysis seems
>>>> sound. The flexibility within the GDPR
>>>> still only allows processing in very
>>>> specific cicumstances, all of which are
>>>> listed in the GDPR.
>>>>
>>>> Am 09.02.2018 um 16:45 schrieb Victoria
>>>> Sheckler:
>>>>
>>>> Kathy’s analysis breaks down on a
>>>> practical level when one looks at the
>>>> GDPR and what it says about when data
>>>> can be processed. The GDPR allows for
>>>> flexibility for what can be processed
>>>> and when, and kathy’s analysis
>>>> overlooks that point.
>>>>
>>>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On
>>>> Behalf Of*Kathy Kleiman
>>>> *Sent:*Thursday, February 8, 2018 7:07 PM
>>>> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal
>>>> basis vs. lawful
>>>>
>>>> Tx for the invitation to join, Chuck,
>>>> and following up on the discussion of
>>>> Sam and Tapani, let me add that
>>>> criteria for processing must be clearer
>>>> than something broadly within ICANN's
>>>> mission statement and something
>>>> permissible somewhere. The requirements
>>>> under law are express and concrete.
>>>>
>>>> Specifically, GDPR Article 5(1)(b and
>>>> c) states:
>>>>
>>>> *Personal data shall be:
>>>> 2. "collected for_specified, explicit
>>>> and legitimate purposes_and not further
>>>> processed in a manner that is
>>>> incompatible with those purposes"*(the
>>>> "purpose limitation") AND*
>>>> 3. "adequate, relevant and limited to
>>>> what is necessary in relation to the
>>>> purposes for which they are
>>>> processed"*(the "data minimisation"
>>>> requirement). [underline added]*
>>>> *
>>>> Thus, our first criteria of "consistent
>>>> with ICANN's mission," is only the
>>>> first step and we need to go further
>>>> than even the 3 criteria we are
>>>> discussing..
>>>>
>>>> Second, lawful and legal enter us into
>>>> a debate over words and I have to agree
>>>> with Sam and Tapani's analysis and let
>>>> me add some of my own.
>>>>
>>>> "Legal" is the term we use for actions
>>>> expressly allowed under law. How we
>>>> process personal data under the GDRP
>>>> falls into this category -- of
>>>> processing expressly allowed under law.
>>>> Whereas the term lawful is used for a
>>>> much broader category of actions which
>>>> are generally permissible and allowable.
>>>>
>>>> The term "legal" is much more
>>>> consistent with our criteria statement
>>>> because the processing of personal data
>>>> by ICANN must clearly have a/valid
>>>> legal basis/as expressly defined by
>>>> data protection laws.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Kathy
>>>>
>>>> On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Sam Lanfranco wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Tapani,
>>>>
>>>> I will extract from your longer
>>>> message.
>>>> I deliberately kept my brief and
>>>> less technical.
>>>> I think we are in agreement here
>>>> and I support your position.
>>>>
>>>> On 2/7/2018 1:07 AM, Tapani
>>>> Tarvainen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The key distinction, as I
>>>> understand it, is that "lawful"
>>>> would be
>>>> defined by the negative,
>>>> everything that some law does not
>>>> prohibit,
>>>>
>>>> where as "legal basis" is defined
>>>> by the positive, only things whose
>>>> justification can be explicitly
>>>> derived from law.
>>>>
>>>> <......>
>>>>
>>>> So I would prefer "legal basis"
>>>> specifically in this sense: that
>>>> any processing
>>>> would have to be explicitly based
>>>> on one of the criteria, or bases,
>>>> as listed
>>>> in GDPR Article 6, or similar
>>>> explicit justification in other
>>>> data protection legislation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>
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