[gnso-rpm-wg] Questionable UDRPs & TM applications
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Mon Aug 22 07:55:07 UTC 2016
Come on guys, play nice!
VG
Am 21.08.2016 um 09:15 schrieb Greg Shatan:
> Wow. Not sure what I did to merit _that_ email. I thought we were
> supposed to "play nice."
>
> Clearly, I didn't write that email to "feel better." I did it to put a
> marker down that there were allegations made in this thread that can
> and will be rebutted when the time comes. Our co-Chair asked us to
> move on and I respected that request. But I didn't want anyone to
> think these statements were correct or generally agreed to just
> because there was no substantive response on this thread.
>
> We can move on now (in fact, I thought we already had -- that was kind
> of the point of the prior email). But we'll be back.
>
> On Saturday, August 20, 2016, Paul at law.es <mailto:Paul at law.es> ZIMBRA
> <paul at law.es <mailto:paul at law.es>> wrote:
>
> Greg, do you feel better now?
>
> Can we move on?
>
> Paul Keating
>
> On 20 Aug 2016, at 7:43 PM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>> I had drafted a lengthy response to some of the earlier emails in
>> this thread, but out of respect for our co-Chair's request, I'll
>> "bookmark" it in my drafts folder for the appropriate time -- in
>> spite of Paul McGrady's wise counsel that "in ICANNland, bad
>> ideas get traction unless immediately confronted."
>>
>> As for "playing nice," I will point out that Paul McGrady's email
>> regarding potentially requiring financial disclosures by domain
>> name applicants was in response to George's email suggestion to
>> require financial disclosures by UDRP complainants, not (as
>> assumed) the earlier "proof of use" suggestion. Thus, the
>> scolding to "play nice" was predicated on a false premise and
>> completely uncalled-for. On a topic where passions run high and
>> imaginations run unchecked, it's probably a wise thing to check
>> what people are responding to before responding to them.
>>
>> I find it amusing that the command to "play nice" was issued
>> almost the first time somebody said something remotely
>> unfavorable to respondents, on a thread previously devoted almost
>> entirely to impugning, narrowing the rights of and raising the
>> bar for trademark owners -- often based on statements that were
>> far more deserving of that cautionary command. While many of
>> these statements were highly rebuttable (to say the least...),
>> I'll hold the catalogue of rebuttals for when the time comes.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 12:58 PM, Paul McGrady
>> <policy at paulmcgrady.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','policy at paulmcgrady.com');>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Paul K.,
>>
>> Your suggestion of tabling this is very welcome. Even so, I
>> think we have to make sure that we don’t imply other thinkers
>> aren’t “playing nice” if we try to find the right balance of
>> reciprocal obligations in UDRP reform (assuming the UDRP is
>> ever diagnosed as needing reform). I expect this will become
>> a topic when these issues are visited at the proper time. We
>> will all have to be very patient, at that time, with the long
>> wish lists that appear to have been growing over the last
>> decade.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Paul D. McGrady, Jr.
>>
>> policy at paulmcgrady.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','policy at paulmcgrady.com');>
>>
>> *From:*Paul at law.es
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Paul at law.es');> ZIMBRA
>> [mailto:paul at law.es
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','paul at law.es');>]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 20, 2016 11:18 AM
>> *To:* Paul McGrady <policy at paulmcgrady.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','policy at paulmcgrady.com');>>
>> *Cc:* George Kirikos <icann at leap.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','icann at leap.com');>>;
>> gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org');>
>>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Questionable UDRPs & TM applications
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> Let's play nice. Proof of use is certainly not a financial
>> disclosure and I would think any trademark holder acting in
>> good faith should have no problem, showing actual use.
>>
>> At any rate lets table this for the appropriate moment.
>>
>> Paul Keating
>>
>>
>> On 20 Aug 2016, at 4:45 PM, Paul McGrady
>> <policy at paulmcgrady.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','policy at paulmcgrady.com');>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks George. An interesting idea. I wonder how
>> Respondents would feel about a reciprocal requirement
>> that they turn over audited financial statements in order
>> to have standing to register a domain name? You might
>> have finally cooked up the deterrent to cybersquatting in
>> the first place!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> Paul D. McGrady, Jr.
>> policy at paulmcgrady.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','policy at paulmcgrady.com');>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org');>
>> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org');>]
>> On Behalf Of George Kirikos
>> Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2016 8:20 AM
>> To: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org');>
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Questionable UDRPs & TM
>> applications
>>
>> To participate in a new gTLD sunrise period, a TMCH
>> markholder must submit a proof of use, see
>> question/answer 2.2 through 2.4 of:
>>
>> https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/about/trademark-clearinghouse/faqs
>> <https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/about/trademark-clearinghouse/faqs>
>>
>> The justification for that requirement was to prevent
>> gaming. This rule was established before sunrise periods
>> even came about for new gTLDs, as folks expected abuse if
>> the proof of use requirement did not exist (and they saw
>> what happened in the .EU sunrise).
>>
>> The same principle should apply to the UDRP, given the
>> *actual* abuse we're observing, as folks exploit gaping
>> loopholes in the policy. In the 1990s, the drafters of
>> the UDRP either did not contemplate these kinds of
>> attacks, or did not appreciate the potential severity of
>> the problem. To not eliminate those loopholes would
>> invite further abuse of domain name registrants.
>>
>> We're not at that disussion point yet, but when we get
>> there I will suggest going much further than simply using
>> "proof of use" for standing requirements of the UDRP. If
>> there was an actual lawsuit, it's almost a certainty that
>> revenues generated by the trademarked goods/services
>> would need to be presented to the courts. If UDRP
>> complainants had to file audited financials relating to
>> actual revenues generated from their mark, that would go
>> a long way to eliminating abuse of the procedure by
>> trademark trolls.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> George Kirikos
>> 416-588-0269 <tel:416-588-0269>
>> http://www.leap.com/
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 8:52 AM, Paul McGrady
>> <policy at paulmcgrady.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','policy at paulmcgrady.com');>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> While I think this subject is several months
>> premature, and I don’t
>>
>> want to wade in on the substance at this time, we
>> should note that
>>
>> what is being suggested here is that ICANN give
>> preference to certain
>>
>> national trademark regimes and disregard others.
>> Tricky topic in
>>
>> ICANNland for sure, especially these days.
>>
>> Best to all,
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Paul D. McGrady, Jr.
>>
>> policy at paulmcgrady.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','policy at paulmcgrady.com');>
>>
>> From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org');>
>>
>>
>> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org');>]
>>
>> On Behalf Of Edward Morris
>>
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 6:53 PM
>>
>> To: Phil Corwin <psc at vlaw-dc.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','psc at vlaw-dc.com');>>
>>
>> Cc: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org');>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Questionable UDRPs & TM
>> applications
>>
>> Excellent point, Phil.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 20 Aug 2016, at 00:49, Phil Corwin
>> <psc at vlaw-dc.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','psc at vlaw-dc.com');>> wrote:
>>
>> This suggests to me that all trademarks are not
>> created equal, and
>>
>> that when we reach our UDRP work we may wish to
>> address the issue of
>>
>> whether a certain quality of trademark should be
>> required for filing a UDRP.
>>
>> Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal
>>
>> Virtualaw LLC
>>
>> 1155 F Street, NW
>>
>> Suite 1050
>>
>> Washington, DC 20004
>>
>> 202-559-8597 <tel:202-559-8597>/Direct
>>
>> 202-559-8750 <tel:202-559-8750>/Fax
>>
>> 202-255-6172 <tel:202-255-6172>/Cell
>>
>> Twitter: @VlawDC
>>
>> "Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey
>>
>> From: gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org');>
>>
>>
>> [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org');>]
>>
>> On Behalf Of Emil
>>
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 5:44 PM
>>
>> To: Paul Keating
>>
>> Cc: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org');>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Questionable UDRPs & TM
>> applications
>>
>> Paul, thank you for appreciating my concern.
>>
>> I am very pleased to see that I can bring value in
>> this exclusive
>>
>> community of professionals.
>>
>> In the last 12 years I've seen a lot of cases where
>> legitimate SMEs
>>
>> get bullied with the "we'll get your domain" threat
>> based on abusive
>>
>> TM registrations, mostly postdating the domain name
>> registration
>>
>> dates. In some cases I am very familiar with the
>> patterns - as in how
>>
>> relatively established website owners try to game the
>> system - concrete ways.
>>
>> This is a major problem in certain countries of
>> Europe (eastern block)
>>
>> and outside Europe (countries like Tunisia let's say)
>> where you can
>>
>> theoretically register any trademark even if it is
>> not necessarily
>>
>> distinctive, special nor recognizable.
>>
>> On 20 Aug 2016 00:15, Paul Keating <Paul at law.es
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Paul at law.es');>> wrote:
>>
>> This and comments such as George's should not be
>> lost. These comments
>>
>> need to be retained and specifically addressed during
>> the UDRP portion of the WG.
>>
>> From: <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org');>>
>> on behalf of Emil <emil at cv.ro
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','emil at cv.ro');>>
>>
>> Date: Friday, August 19, 2016 4:30 PM
>>
>> To: George Kirikos <icann at leap.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','icann at leap.com');>>
>>
>> Cc: <gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org');>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rpm-wg] Questionable UDRPs & TM
>> applications
>>
>> George, often TM registrations are granted on bogus
>> or strange claims.
>>
>> For example Christian Louboutin was granted a TM for
>> red shoes
>>
>> outsole. By this logic BMW could be granted a TM for
>> silver cars.
>>
>> In the domain world:
>>
>> There is a car rental company called
>> economycarrentals.com <http://economycarrentals.com>.
>> They tried
>>
>> to obtain a TM at European level for "economy car
>> rentals", a super
>>
>> generic term used by thousands of rental agencies.
>> Why? So that they
>>
>> can claim economyrentacar.com
>> <http://economyrentacar.com> and
>> economyrentalcars.com <http://economyrentalcars.com>
>> in WIPO - the
>>
>> EMD of their main competitor.
>>
>> They were refused (now twice) an EM Europe Wide
>> trademark for lack of
>>
>> distinctiveness but went on and tried at country
>> level. A handfull of
>>
>> countries allowed them to register a word (not
>> figurative) trademark
>>
>> on "economy car rentals" a dictionary super generic
>> formulation. Now
>>
>> they will threaten & hussle with a WIPO arbitration
>> all the local TLD
>>
>> owners for those particular countries.
>>
>> Emil
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
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>
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